Put Love First: Transforming Conflict into Connection

In this deeply insightful conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger sits down with psychotherapist and relationship expert Ray Rivers to explore what it truly means to put love first—not as a feeling, but as a way of being.

Drawing from decades of experience working with couples, Ray shares how conflict in relationships is not a problem to avoid, but a doorway into deeper connection, healing, and growth. Together, Habīb and Ray unpack how our childhood wounds, survival strategies, and unconscious patterns show up in our relationships—and how awareness can transform reactivity into presence.

This episode explores:

• Love as a state of consciousness rather than an emotion 
• Why conflict is an opportunity for deeper intimacy 
• How early life experiences shape our relational patterns 
• Practical ways to regulate emotions and respond with awareness 
• The role of spiritual practice in transforming how we show up in relationships 
• How these principles extend beyond marriage into our wider world 

At its heart, this conversation is an invitation to accept every moment of tension—within yourself, your relationships, and even the world—with the question, “How do I meet this with love?”

Whether you’re in a relationship, healing from one, or seeking to live with greater presence and compassion, this episode offers both profound insight and practical wisdom. 

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 42

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Ray Rivers

Title: Put Love First: Transforming Conflict into Connection

Description: In this deeply insightful conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger sits down with psychotherapist and relationship expert Ray Rivers to explore what it truly means to put love first—not as a feeling, but as a way of being.

Drawing from decades of experience working with couples, Ray shares how conflict in relationships is not a problem to avoid, but a doorway into deeper connection, healing, and growth. Together, Habīb and Ray unpack how our childhood wounds, survival strategies, and unconscious patterns show up in our relationships—and how awareness can transform reactivity into presence.

This episode explores:

• Love as a state of consciousness rather than an emotion 
• Why conflict is an opportunity for deeper intimacy 
• How early life experiences shape our relational patterns 
• Practical ways to regulate emotions and respond with awareness 
• The role of spiritual practice in transforming how we show up in relationships 
• How these principles extend beyond marriage into our wider world 

At its heart, this conversation is an invitation to accept every moment of tension—within yourself, your relationships, and even the world—with the question, “How do I meet this with love?”

Whether you’re in a relationship, healing from one, or seeking to live with greater presence and compassion, this episode offers both profound insight and practical wisdom.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names, I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Hashem, Brahman, Great Spirit, Higher Power, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality in our daily lives, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Ray Rivers. Ray is the founder of Relationship Remedy and the creator of the Relationship Results Program.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Ray is a clinical psychotherapist with decades of experience guiding couples toward deeper understanding and lasting transformation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: He is the author of Real Answers for Couples on the Brink: One Chapter Could Save Your Marriage.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And he also writes a blog. To learn more about Ray and his work, please visit relationshipremedynow.com, or his YouTube channel, which is Ray Rivers Relationship Remedy. Ray, welcome, thank you for being here.

Ray Rivers: Hey, so nice to, what a… what a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes. So, would you please introduce yourself as, sharing your spiritual story, you know, to the… obviously, to the extent that you're comfortable, but let us know a little bit about who you are in terms of your spiritual journey.

Ray Rivers: Well, I guess I was always a spiritual seeker, and I think for spiritual seekers, there's, like, this sense that there's some… something that we're missing.

Ray Rivers: Some sense that our experience is missing some essential component, some… some, element of… of truth.

Ray Rivers: And some way of knowing ourself and understanding the world and our human journey and our experience. 

Ray Rivers: And I followed or I explored many, many different paths 

Ray Rivers: And what…what's consistent about all of them is that this sense that our true identity is hidden beneath layers of defensive, sort of life defenses, survival techniques -- to not be hurt, to not be wounded, by this brutal world that we go through.

Ray Rivers: And our survival techniques include our personality, include how we define ourselves, includes how we relate to other people, and it's all coming from a place of defensiveness and reactivity.

Ray Rivers: But discovering our true nature sets us free to simply shine our light and to stand strong in our truth.

Ray Rivers: And to, to transform our life journey into one of creativity and possibility and opportunity as we realize our highest potentials that are within us, that we have…. 

Ray Rivers: We are so much more, we have so much…so much more treasure within us than… we… than we are aware of. 

Ray Rivers: Like, we define ourselves based on what we internalized from our culture, and from our family, and from our, from a variety of, of different places.

Ray Rivers: And the spiritual awakening is awakening to what is actually within us that transcends all of that.

Ray Rivers: And then we can really start living an authentic life and contributing our unique value to the whole.

Ray Rivers: So, my journey, I, ultimately landed in a, a, on a retreat, on a Sufi retreat where the space was still and removed enough, and the guidance in how to go deeper, go ever deeper into what's there beneath all of this through, through techniques of of, through techniques to penetrate and transcend the personality, the movement of the mind, the movement of the emotion. 

Ray Rivers: And at some point at this retreat, I just started crying.

Ray Rivers: And this crying, this… and I've seen this in other, happen with others on this path of Sufism, which is not the only path, and it's not the only way. But this is how it happened for me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Ray Rivers: The tears that were coming out were… I think the…liquidization, that… all the pain, all the body of pain and calcification of self-protection kind of turning into liquid and washing away, pouring through me, so that I could just be.

Ray Rivers: And then I could start to really discover my true nature without the… the fear -- the fear that causes… that sends us into fight or flight, that sends us into, kind of a defensive, orientation, which it becomes a kind of empowerment.

Ray Rivers: Like, oh, well, this is who I am, this is my identity, and we get a great capacity for living effectively, embodying it, but then there's this perpetual sense that there's something more true and fulfilling and, and full of possibility behind it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Ray Rivers: And, yeah, so that's what…

Ray Rivers: So here I am, I think I left out some stuff, but believe it or not, through all of that, through all those words, I left out stuff, but hey.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, you… I noticed you used the term spiritual awakening. That's a term that really resonates with me, because I shared before we started recording that I've recently completed a manuscript, that I'm really focusing on what were the moments in my life that I would call moments of spiritual awakening, like, what… what were the… what was the beginning moment? The moment that I'd point to that was kind of the beginning of it?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What were the moments that were like, yeah, wake up again, wake up again, wake up a little more?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, I'm wondering if you had any particular moments in your life where you're like, yeah, this is something that I could point to, what happened here. You mentioned the retreat, and you mentioned this sense of washing the body of pain.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I wonder if there's other moments that you recognize as being pivotal moments of spiritual awakening in your… in your life.

Ray Rivers: You know, I… I…it kind of occurred out of… not tied to any particular event, but as I worked with couples, what I, what I realized is that anything other than Love is really misguided.

Ray Rivers: It's really, it creates an equal and opposite reaction that's just very unintelligent.

Ray Rivers: You know, you put pain out there, and then somehow you get pain back, you know?

Ray Rivers: You express, anything other than… and love is not an emotion… well, there are many different kinds of love, as Sufism teaches.

Ray Rivers: But I'm not referring to, like, passionate love or love as an emotion. I'm referring to more a state of consciousness that is… that feels whole, and feels complete.

Ray Rivers: That one is abiding in one's nature, and then enjoying life, enjoying connecting with others, enjoying being still, enjoying activity, but without a sense of, I'm empty, fill me, I'm empty, fill me, but rather coming from a place of feeling fulfilled, and then, experiencing, using your life experiences as an opportunity to share that and to experience that at an ever more deep, at an ever deeper level, ever more refined level.

Ray Rivers: And what's interesting about the different spiritual paths is, like, they're, a lot of them, like, Zen, or some of the spiritual paths talk more about stillness. Sufism talks about love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Ray Rivers: And I would, I would, first of all, I would argue that, ultimately, they may be talking about the same thing, because the nature of this stillness is… is ease, and peace and, and expanded consciousness.

Ray Rivers: But, the, what distinguishes Sufism is this connection with love as a state of consciousness and what that means.

Ray Rivers: And again, people that are not as familiar with esoteric spiritual paths might hear that and think that love is like this kind of maybe, maybe sappy, maybe needy, maybe, self-sacrificial, maybe kind of, like, this sticky, or, or, like you know, a corny, blah, blah.

Ray Rivers: And it really is a completely different… That's not what I'm referring to.

Ray Rivers: It's really the absence of tension, the absence of inner conflict, the, the motivation to turn all external conflict into an opportunity to create something beautiful. 

Ray Rivers: Something beautiful.

Ray Rivers: Some kind of connection.

Ray Rivers: Some kind of light.

Ray Rivers: Something that feels like an evolution.

Ray Rivers: Like you're going deeper into something worthy.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I love that idea of taking conflict, and using it as a doorway into something that's more beautiful, something that's more… that's a greater connection. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And as you're saying that, I'm like, How good am I that… how good am I at doing that in my marriage? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, like… like… Do I… when I feel a… a sense of conflict, do I, in fact, look at it as an opportunity to draw it closer together, and to draw, to dive into deeper love, and it's a great thing for me to sit with and to carry in my consciousness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, that said, how… what tips do you give for couples who are in relationship, and… find themselves, you know, in conflict? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: How… how do you support folks in being in this love as a state of consciousness, a way of living in the relationship?

Ray Rivers: It's so cool, because every conflict in a marriage… well, once you reach a certain level of maturity, right? I mean, if you're kind of stuck in a very narcissistic or emotionally immature state, then a lot of my advice isn't really going to be too helpful.

Ray Rivers: But if there's a certain level of desire to mature and evolve and create this love, and recognizing its value, and, and this sort of intuitive sense that I can do better, we can do better.

Ray Rivers: There's this more evolved partnership that's waiting for us, that we both kind of know it's there, and yet we're stuck watching ourselves do the same dance over and over. 

Ray Rivers: And it's like we're watching ourselves go, and we both…we're both smart, we both know better, why am I doing this? Why don't I have the clarity about how to move this into a different space? 

Ray Rivers: So, what you just described is, as far as using conflict as an opportunity to create a deeper connection. When there is this kind of struggle in marriages or in partnerships, it's unresolved, emotional issues for each partner that really started, almost always in childhood.

Ray Rivers: And I know that might sound like a kind of a therapist, you know, oh yeah, it's all about your childhood, but all I can tell you is that doing this for decades with thousands of people, I've seen it over and over again. 

Ray Rivers: And I was perhaps even a skeptic, you know, as I, you know, as I was educated, and, you know, and kept doing the job, and kept learning from people.

Ray Rivers: But I kept seeing it over and over, and it's remarkable. So there are certain sort of formative, unresolved principles like, feeling rejected, feeling emotionally abandoned, feeling misunderstood, and that's a big one.

Ray Rivers: Because, first of all, we want our partner, like, to get us. Like, that's why we don't feel alone in the partnership. Like, this person gets me. So when they get us wrong in these extreme ways, it's devastating, but also, they're always getting us wrong like we're a bad person.

Ray Rivers: Like, like, oh, you're, you know, you're selfish, you're, you're superficial, you're manipulative, you're narcissist, whatever, and you're like, oh my god, no, I'm like, this, all I want to do is love you, and I'm going to be this good person, and that's, like, the most demoralizing experience we can have.

Ray Rivers: People feel controlled, or like they don't have enough agency in their marriage. They can feel disrespected, or mistreated, or violated, dismissed, marginalized, you know, like they don't have a voice. 

Ray Rivers: These… and these, again, all originate in not having a sense of your own value and your own empowerment to create the life circumstances that reflect your own value back to you.

Ray Rivers: And so you end up in this constant, like hustle to take your value, to have your value, you know, no, I'm going to… like, you're either fighting for your value, which creates an opponent, because you can only fight an opponent.

Ray Rivers: Where you shut down and run and escape from a situation, like, I don't have any power here, I’ve got to get out of here, but you never develop the skills to create the connection for which the potential does exist.

Ray Rivers: Or… fight, flight, or freeze. 

Ray Rivers: Or you're literally so overwhelmed with the… the pain that you just… you know, you can't function.

Ray Rivers: And so, it starts with being aware that this is the phenomenon that's being triggered in you.

Ray Rivers: And then you recognize that the same thing is happening for your partner.

Ray Rivers: This is really hard. It's really hard, because you always… we always feel like the victim, the person who is being mistreated. 

Ray Rivers: You know, I'm just this innocent person, and you're coming at me, you know…But… It's… it's a… it's an inexorable mathematical, if you will, or… well, law of physics. We're talking about physics, not math. I retract the math reference.

Ray Rivers: Physics, law of physics, that if you are feeling that way, they will feel that way. They are also feeling mistreated in a way that mirrors the way that you feel mistreated. 

Ray Rivers: And then having the presence to apply, tools of connection that neutralize their fight-or-flight response, that empower… enable your own ability for self-mastery.

Ray Rivers: I mean, really, all of life is the increased… on one level, all of life is the increased capacity for self-regulation and self-mastery through progressively challenging circumstances.

Ray Rivers: So, you, you know, you learn not to pee and poop yourself when you're a little baby. You master that, or impulse control.

Ray Rivers: You can't just butt to the front of the line. You can't just interrupt people when they're talking, you know? And these are increasingly refined skills of self-regulation and of relationship. You know, you become older, you learn how to socialize with some finesse, or you don't.

Ray Rivers: You know, but… so our marriages and our relationships are just another level of this kind of, I feel triggered, and I'm not going to just do what we did in my house growing up.

Ray Rivers: Or the role models I saw, you know, on, you know, well, I don't know if people watch TV anymore these days, you know, we're old, Habib.

Ray Rivers: But, you know, and maybe Instagram influencers, yeah, don't take that! Whatever. 

Ray Rivers: But, to people… we do what we know, right? 

Ray Rivers: And it's remarkable how we just automatically just do what our parents did, or what our… what our attachment figures did, and the language that comes out of us, the phrases, it's almost to the… it is to the… we say what our… we say what our attachment figures said, you know?

Ray Rivers: And people… don't know that they don't have to fight.

Ray Rivers: Like, you feel uncomfortable, and they don't know that there are many other options.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Ray Rivers: So, getting the tools to make these different choices and, and implement them.

Ray Rivers: You really cultivate a lot of undeveloped potential within yourself that's right there.

Ray Rivers: Like this, this, these other, possibilities that… that want to express themselves. 

Ray Rivers: These lights that we all are made of that have not been turned on yet.

Ray Rivers: Learning how to turn them on, and share them with our partner, and commune with our partner, and turn that into both the most evolved expression of ourself, and the partnership that becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

Ray Rivers: It's both at the same time. It's… it's a paradox.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I can't help but think, of course, I mean it’s not…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I don't know that someone could listen to you and not think about their own relationships and their own marriage, and I'm thinking, oh, a perfect example from my life is… when I was a child, my mother was extremely volatile.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so, the home was not a safe space. And I feared for my life, you know?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I saw my parents lose control many times in relationship to my brother, my older brother, and I would hide in the closet.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I would run into the closet and hide, and I would try and, you know, disappear, and try not to hear what, you know, what I was hearing, or, you know, try to remove myself from that volatility and not knowing what's going to happen, and how bad it's going to be, and, you know, so I was always, like, trying to be outside, or, you know.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so, of course when you're in relationship with someone, you can't avoid emotions, like, that's not a… that's not a… that was a survival strategy for childhood. It's not a… it's not a recipe for a marriage, right?

Ray Rivers: You didn't set up, like, a…the closet in your home with, like, a pillow and a…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm going to go hide in the closet and try and pretend that what's happening is not happening, and try not to hear it, and… but… but I have that.

Ray Rivers: Your wife's like, I know you're… I know you're in there, I know you're in there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But what it took for me was, like, okay, I had to untangle the fact that my wife is experiencing emotions does not equal that my life is in danger, you know?

Ray Rivers: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I had to…you know, say A does not equal B. And so part, you know, a big part of our relationship has been me sort of letting go of that survival strategy from my childhood, and learning to be present in the experience of emotion.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And move to a place of having compassion and mercy for myself, and for my own experience and my own reactions, but have compassion and mercy and kindness for my wife's emotional experience.

Ray Rivers: So, to give even more clarity on that. It's not just if your wife is emotional, she's not a threat to you. 

Ray Rivers: It's if you feel, or me, if I'm Habib, if I feel uncomfortable emotions that are telling me that there's a threat, there's no threat, it's actually just the raw physical discomfort of these habitual emotions that are functioning as a kind of a danger alarm.

Ray Rivers: And learning how to be with these big, uncomfortable feelings and change our relationship to them until they dissipate and neutralize, which is an organic process that comes from consciousness, from simply putting your attention on them, and witnessing them, and it's, it's, like exposure therapy. 

Ray Rivers: By which I mean, like, if you are, you know, afraid of dogs, because you got bit by a dog. You have to rewire your nervous system to, through the experience of safety in the presence of a dog.

Ray Rivers: So maybe on, you know, Monday you go and you look down at a dog park.

Ray Rivers: And then on Tuesday, you go to the entrance of the dog park, and you listen to the barking, and then on Wednesday, you go inside, but you don't pet any dogs. And then on Thursday, you know, you pet the dogs. 

Ray Rivers: So it's kind of a similar… but… and eventually, God willing, you retrain your nervous system. 

Ray Rivers: And it's a similar kind of thing, where you experience the uncomfortable feelings, and they are creating an impulse to do what you've always done, to shut down, to run and hide, to fight back, to punch the wall, to go hide in a, you know, a video game, or, you know, this is where addictions start, you know? And, you know, anesthetizing oneself in sex, drugs, rock and roll, gambling, food, pornography, whatever. 

Ray Rivers: And instead, to experience, to actually create that moment of choice, where you could either go in one… go in a reactive direction.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Ray Rivers: See, I'm… I'm okay. All I have to do… it's so simple.

Ray Rivers: This is the beauty of it. It's… you really just don't have to do anything but, be fully present with the awareness and start getting curious about what your experience is. 

Ray Rivers: Oh, I noticed that my stomach is twisting into knots. My fists and jaw are clenching, my face is getting ripped, my throat's tight, my heart's beating fast, whatever.

Ray Rivers: Critical element of this is to notice your breathing, because we tend to stop breathing, or breathe very shallowly, and this tells our master biological consciousness, if you will, that we're suffocating, and then that triggers more alarm, less safety, and so just being aware of that, and then it's really so empowering.

Ray Rivers: I mean… the… you're free.

Ray Rivers: The moment of freedom comes when you're in that situation where you used to feel total danger and you feel nothing but safety and the inspiration to create love and connection and healing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Ray Rivers: This is the moment. But what does that look like? When we try to create healing, usually it's like, wait, babe, stop it, come on! You know, it's this other kind of ineffective way of engaging. 

Ray Rivers: And I teach powerful and effective ways of engaging, of creating that transformation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I can't help but think about the stories.... 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: One of the things that my wife and I have grown in our skill set is to identify what story is operating. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, so, like, when this happens, this is a…this is the story from my childhood. This is, like, where my… this is the story that I tell myself. So, whether it's, like, oh, there's no space for me, or….

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You mentioned those examples earlier about, oh, I’m misunderstood, or I feel abandoned, or, you know, whatever, whatever the history that we personally have, and how that manifests in these stories that we tell ourselves.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's been very transformative to say, so, this is the story that I've got going, you know.

Ray Rivers: Right, right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And for the other person to say, well, this is the story that I… that I've got. When this happens, this is what I've got going. And then we go, oh, so, you know, I never understood, you know, that this is what your experience was, and then it's… then it's so much easier to just have compassion for what the other person's experience is.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But you.... It limits the ability to have compassion for the other person's experience if you don't actually know what the… what that experience is.

Ray Rivers: Yeah, yeah.

Ray Rivers: And we're so, sensitive to each other that a lot of times, simply the awareness that there is tension in the other person triggers all kinds of unconscious, automatic, you know, reaction. 

Ray Rivers: And so, you know, being aware of that tendency within ourself is our responsibility, and also, learning the skill set of communicating, sharing one's truth in a more, in a way that your partner can receive is… is another skill set.

Ray Rivers: So there's the internal game, and then there's the communication skill set as well. 

Ray Rivers: It's the music, the music that you're making, and turning every challenging interaction like, flipping it into, I'm going to heal this for us. And you are safe, and you're reassuring the other that they are safe. Getting the very specific, language and other energetic techniques to… to make the other one feel… make your partner feel safe.

Ray Rivers: Are… is how you create a new…a new normal, a new, level of… a new foundation that you are operating on.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And taking the time to… really hear, like, what's the other person going through.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, making time for that, because it's so easy to get caught up in our lives, in the busyness or the scrolling, whatever it is, it's like, it's so easy to get distracted, or to get overwhelmed, or just to have so much busyness that you don't take the time. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And to actually take the time to be present with each other, and to listen to each other, and hear what each other's experience is, opens a doorway to greater connection, greater love.

Ray Rivers: Yeah, well, you know, that's part of the higher state of consciousness, because what I found in my own marriage is… well, first of all, your marriage is a living system. You know?

Ray Rivers: It's like, you know, like the plants, you know, if you don't water them, they're going to die. If you don't give them love and care, they're going to die.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Ray Rivers: And, if you don't do the same with your marriage, the same will happen, but that almost… that makes it seem like, you know, something you do out of a sense of duty.

Ray Rivers: I… It's just a pleasure. It feels good to make love, you know? To create love, to create a loving environment. That's how we're wired. 

Ray Rivers: And not… again, not in this kind of corny, you know, I love you, honey, I love you too, shmoopy-doopy-doop. You know, it's not… I'm not talking about that. 

Ray Rivers: I'm talking about a very grounded and full… whole sense of partnership that is its own, its own… its own fulfilling. 

Ray Rivers: It's kind of like a… a pinnacle of… of the possibility of the human experience where… it's at such a level of… just… just abstraction, you know?

Ray Rivers: It's not, okay, I'll… if I make… if I accomplish this, then I'll feel good, and I'll get this reward. If I do… 

Ray Rivers: It's just a state of being that… that is… is resonant, and that one… When… when you find another, consciousness, a partner, that is committed to putting love first, always...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Ray Rivers: that's what you're sharing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Ray Rivers: So you're sharing, you know, you share interest, oh, we like the same music, or this. That's great, and that's wonderful.

Ray Rivers: When you're sharing an awareness of the superficiality, of the illusion in which we, we were programmed to… to… to live in and cultivate and perfect.

Ray Rivers: And that we need to surrender all of that and connect in just this space of, of depth and simplicity then… that is, you don't… It's a joy to stay connected. 

Ray Rivers: And so, as we get busy, as you're saying, as we have all these, you know, responsibilities, etc., to always, to never lose that sense of depth and connection is… It's like you've won the game.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Ray Rivers: You've really won the game.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I also want to bring up… There's a parallel in the language that you use in terms of… you use the word awareness a lot. You use the word notice. When… in the spiritual formation courses that I teach, I often say, notice, nurture.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Notice, nurture, notice, nurture. Like, this… this needs to be the pattern that you just… you notice what's going on with yourself, you notice what's going on with the people that you're interacting with, you know, like, have that level of awareness going on all the time, like, live with that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… with that awareness move to caring for yourself.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I love that idea of putting that depth and connection and commitment to love first, again and again and again, because then the conflicts are opportunities, they're doorways.

Ray Rivers: So that's the question you always ask. You just want a guiding, you know, North Pole. 

Ray Rivers: It's…How do we heal this with love? That's all you ever need to ask. That's all you ever need to do, whatever's coming up, how do I heal this with love? Or, how do I put love first in this circumstance, in this situation?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And a true commitment to… return to that again and again and again. A true commitment to live, like, a desire to live from that...

Ray Rivers: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: and to live in that, like, that … that sincerity of intention to bring.

Ray Rivers: Well, it's kind of like, it becomes very fun, because it's like, I don't know why, I'm thinking of, like, you know, bubble wrap when you… Like, as the tensions come up, you're just like, oh, no. No, oh, I'm… oh, there you are! Yeah, I've been living with you for a long time. Bye! You know, I'm going to put love first right now, you know?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I also want to bring up that my ability to do what we're talking about has come through my spiritual practices.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So the fact that I have had time where I'm sitting with a particular recitation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, or the fact that I've had time to sit with remembrance of the divine and the sacred in my heart, and hold that sense of presence in my heart. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Like, that has… whichever particular practice it might be, like, that's what has enabled me to show up in this way in my marriage.

Ray Rivers: The spiritual practices are, sort of… are… are… the attempt to transmit states of reality that originated as an experience, and then they gave birth to these practices as a way of transmitting, that were, seeded, that were born in this initial state of higher consciousness, and then kind of encoded, if you will, in the practices, and then through the intention, and through the, just the gestalt, the circumstances from which they were organically, you know, manifested, and then transmitted, so… so when you contemplate them, because that was the intention from which they were, generated, then, the… the nature of spiritual practices is… is eliminating all of the disturbance, all of the noise, everything that was not or that did not originate in this, formative, primal, essential, in the sense of one's essence, and then the essence that's behind our essence, the even deeper, more, more eternal, more cosmic, if you will reality.

Ray Rivers: So the practice is clear the room of all the noise, if you will, and allow this organic process.

Ray Rivers: So if you put a seed in the ground, you don't have to force it to grow if it's given the right, you know, soil and sunlight and water, that's what it does, it grows.

Ray Rivers: So, our spirit grows when it's not obstructed, occluded by, you know, all the… all the distractions and… and degradations and all the stuff that we…that it seems like the game of the human journey is.

Ray Rivers: Can we make it through this obstacle course that, you know, and not get diverted into these other…these other activities that don't go anywhere, but can we stay, as a being, growing, growing, growing, growing, growing, which truthfully...?

Ray Rivers: So it's kind of what we're doing anyway, but, like, it's what we were designed to do, except we… if we do it with consciousness, then that gives our very… our whole life a whole new meaning, and a whole new possibility.

Ray Rivers: And also, clearly, even though this process is happening, universally, clearly, perhaps even the majority of people are not destined, for whatever reason, in the wisdom of how it all, how it all, by the way of things, to achieve the highest possibilities of consciousness.

Ray Rivers: So…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It takes a real sincere effort to… and devotion, and renewed commitment, again and again, whether… and that applies to both the spiritual journey, but also to the marriage, the relationship.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's not as if we can say, oh, I'm going to put love first today, and it's going to last for the rest… the rest of our time.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's like, no, in both cases, whether it's the journey or the marriage or, you know, in any relationship, we have to have that commitment again and again.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We have to renew that commitment over and over and over and over.

Ray Rivers: Part of the higher consciousness is to always be now, always be present now, is to, you know, you're never on autopilot.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Ray Rivers: You're always being very present, always actively putting love first, and it's, at… it… 

Ray Rivers: But it really does become effortless when you tune into your inner guidance at that level, I can… I mean, I can say that this is the marriage I'm in, so, you know…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Beautiful.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. So I want to, before we wrap up, I want to sort of branch to a different topic.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that is taking what you've learned about relationships and marriage, and this idea of conflict as being an invitation, as a doorway, as an opening, as an opportunity for deeper connection, for greater love, and using that approach to not only be how we are in relationship with our significant other in our partnership, but using that approach to how we are in our life as a whole.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I… any, what comes to you when I ask the question of how do we bring that approach to what's happening in the world today?

Ray Rivers: Well, it's recognizing, again, that anytime there's a conflict, it's because someone doesn't feel safe.

Ray Rivers: And there's fear there.

Ray Rivers: And so… And there's a lot of voices.

Ray Rivers: You know, forget peace, you know, it's not about peace, it's about power, and like, somehow you're a victim if you're not creating a fight, and that… I feel like what you and I are discussing is a more… is just as powerful, and just as effective, and ultimately… and …

Ray Rivers: One is destructive, and the other is creative.

Ray Rivers: And… and so, being aware that some… that… in any conflict, the… other person, or group, or… whatever, a doesn’t feel safe, and then addressing those, safety concerns by expressing a commitment to fairness and justice and collaboration that respects that respects them.

Ray Rivers: And so, you kind of can't apply this if you're not actually prepared to honor them, to honor your partner as you want to be… your opponent, whatever we're talking about here, as you want to be honored, as you want to be respected and cared for and treated, so…

Ray Rivers: But if you recognize that is the opportunity, then…you know, every, every collaboration in love and good faith becomes greater than the sum of its parts, becomes… can create miracles, new realities, new possibilities that are, truly inspired, and that create the… 

Ray Rivers: So it's kind of like once you climb to the top of one mountain, you can see other possibilities from this higher vantage point that you couldn't see before you climbed to the top of that mountain.

Ray Rivers: So keep ascending.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I… I can't help but think of the people who are operating with a different approach to their lives and a different value set.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So does everything that you just said apply in that situation, too?

Ray Rivers: Well, you know, on one level, it's kind of how we're all programmed, and on another level, by the way of things, you have to be with what… be with what is. 

Ray Rivers: I think that there's more possibility than we… then we are aware to apply these kinds of things in… that these, these, these, this approach, orientation, philosophy, etc., can be more powerful and effective generally than we might think.

Ray Rivers: And yet, at the same time, absolutely some people are just kind of shut down, or…

Ray Rivers: One way or another, whatever the wisdom is behind it, whatever the potential may be in the abstract, in reality, the destiny is not… it's not going to…you know, by the wisdom of things, apparently the nature of this journey includes suffering and destruction and chaos, in addition to… everything else.

Ray Rivers: So, you know, that's part of the eternal mystery.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah.

Ray Rivers: But it doesn't… but I think our task is always to move forward as evolving, growing, and more deeply loving, and… that does create, that does open up possibilities always, as we move forward into this, you know ultimately, it's an incredible mystery, really.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And perhaps there's a tipping point in terms of… the… the larger collective, if… each individual or increasingly more individuals are choosing to put love first, are choosing to recognize in… in themselves and others when there's a lack of safety, or there's fear in choosing to use that as a way of bringing healing and bringing connection, as opposed to bringing separation. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: As you said, creativity versus destruction, so as a way of bringing.... Oh, you started....

Ray Rivers: Well, no, well, part of, yeah, part of putting love first is just not making someone your enemy.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Ray Rivers: And the way you don't make someone your enemy is… so, you know, people tend to get, you know, unless they’re just dark, for whatever reason, that's the role they were given, you know, people tend to, on opposite sides of issues, feel like they're standing up for the right thing.

Ray Rivers: No, I'm standing up for values. I'm standing up for truth. 

Ray Rivers: No, well, no, I'm standing up for truth. What you're saying is not true, you know, that. 

Ray Rivers: And so to start honoring, or, you know, for morality, integrity, these virtues, these values, and to start to create a connection by recognizing and honoring that in the sense of, you know, I, you know, I see that, that, integrity is so important to you, as it should be, and to me too, in one way or another, what we both want is this integrity.

Ray Rivers: Let's figure this out, like, what is the… let's figure out… isn't it… with curiosity and exploration, isn't it, you know, I have no…

Ray Rivers: I don't… I don't want to win anything. I want to know what the highest truth is and serve that, as do you. 

Ray Rivers: So, isn't it interesting that we have this completely different sense at the moment of what that is, and let's… let's… let's figure this out together, because I recognize, how… how committed you are to virtue and to truth. 

Ray Rivers: Like, that… that would be sort of a general way of establishing a connection, you know?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I can't help but thinking of the “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.”

Ray Rivers: Indeed, of course.

Ray Rivers: Indeed.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, thank you so much for this conversation. May we all choose over and over and over again to put love first.

Ray Rivers: Awesome. Indeed. Amen.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To choose to look at the conflicts that come up in ourselves, in our personal relationships, but also in the larger world, that we would approach those conflicts as an opportunity to grow in connection, an opportunity to grow in kindness, in compassion, in mercy, and love.

Ray Rivers: And to shine our lights ever brighter.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, yes, and to shine.

Ray Rivers: Get out of our own way so our lights can shine.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Exactly.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, Ray, thanks again for the great conversation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And thank you to all listeners for joining us on Beyond Names. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Before you go, briefly, if you would just pause and take a moment to take a breath, and sit with what stays with you from this conversation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What sticks with me is the, the image of watering the tree, like in our relationships, we need to water the tree, and we need to, like remember, we have to return to the watering of the trees, so…

Ray Rivers: You know what, man?

Ray Rivers: I'll put it like this, you got to walk the dog, you got to feed the dog, you know what I mean? Seriously.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So yeah, let's water the trees, let's choose the love, let's repeatedly ask that question of, you know, how do I put love first in this situation. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, with that.... May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart. May you grow in compassion, clarity, courage, and love. May you find your way again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment on this episode. Please follow and subscribe to Beyond Names.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To see more or learn more about Ray, visit https://relationshipremedynow.com/. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me, https://www.habibboerger.com/.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, may you be light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.

Ray Rivers: Peace be with you.