Sonic Theology: Sufism, Sound, and the Remembrance That Heals

In this deeply moving and contemplative conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger is joined by Hossam Ibn Yusuf, musician, Sufi practitioner, and spiritual seeker whose life has been shaped by sound, nature, and surrender.

Hossam shares his remarkable spiritual journey—from a childhood influenced by Christian and Sufi lineages, to formative years at Dar al-Islam in New Mexico, through loss, resistance, music, and finally a lived embrace of Islam as a verb rather than an identity. Along the way, we explore grief as an opening, faith as direct experience, and the ways the heart softens when it is ready to receive.

Together, Dr. Habīb and Hossam reflect on:

• Sonic theology and the spiritual power of sound
• Qur’anic recitation and dhikr as vibrational medicine
• Nature as the Qur’an al-Takwīnī — the unwritten revelation
• Music, silence, and remembrance as pathways to healing
• Surrender not as dogma, but as lived reality

This episode is especially resonant for those drawn to contemplative spirituality, interspiritual wisdom, and anyone curious about how sound and remembrance awaken the heart beyond belief.

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 31

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Hossam Ibn Yusuf

Title: Sonic Theology: Sufism, Sound, and the Remembrance That Heals

Description: In this deeply moving and contemplative conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger is joined by Hossam Ibn Yusuf, musician, Sufi practitioner, and spiritual seeker whose life has been shaped by sound, nature, and surrender.

Hossam shares his remarkable spiritual journey—from a childhood influenced by Christian and Sufi lineages, to formative years at Dar al-Islam in New Mexico, through loss, resistance, music, and finally a lived embrace of Islam as a verb rather than an identity. Along the way, we explore grief as an opening, faith as direct experience, and the ways the heart softens when it is ready to receive.

Together, Dr. Habīb and Hossam reflect on:

• Sonic theology and the spiritual power of sound
• Qur’anic recitation and dhikr as vibrational medicine
• Nature as the Qur’an al-Takwīnī — the unwritten revelation
• Music, silence, and remembrance as pathways to healing
• Surrender not as dogma, but as lived reality

This episode is especially resonant for those drawn to contemplative spirituality, interspiritual wisdom, and anyone curious about how sound and remembrance awaken the heart beyond belief.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names, I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure yet what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Brahman, Great Spirit, Higher power, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with the introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Hossam Ibn Yusuf.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hossam I know very little about, so basically just meeting. But I was so moved by his recitation during a Sufi morning practices call that I asked him to be, I asked him to be a conversation partner on the podcast.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, Hossam, welcome, thank you for being here. I look forward to learning more about you.

[To learn more about Hossam and his work, please visit https://soundcloud.com/yohosame-cameron.]

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Would you start us off by introducing yourself through telling us a bit of your spiritual story?

Hossam: Yes, thank you so much for the invitation, it's good to be here. As-salamu alaykum.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Alaykum salaam.

Hossam: Alhamdulillah, my spiritual story --

Hossam: Well, I'm going to begin with my parents. My father was the grandson of a Southern Baptist minister, and my mother grew up in a Catholic household.

Hossam: My mother didn't have a positive experience overall with that upbringing, so she has an aversion to organized religion. My father, on the other hand, became involved in Sufi Path in the late 60s. They were living in San Francisco. I was conceived in San Francisco in 1968. Very much born out of the times.

Hossam: And, he met Pir Vilayat Khan, who's the son of Hazrat Inayat Khan, Rahim Allah [May God have mercy on him], who brought a lot of Sufi teachings to the West.

Hossam: And his grandson, Zia Inayat Khan, who carries the lineage and the tradition to this day.

Hossam: So my father became familiar with Sufism, and they also hung out with somebody named Samuel Lewis, known as Sufi Sam.

Hossam: And so, that was the initial imprint, and my father was very sincere in that, and he helped Pir Vilayat Khan build a zawiya [prayer, worship, and retreat space] in Chamonix, France.

Hossam: And from Chamonix, France, he began to spend time in Afghanistan. He was deeply influenced by the writing of Rumi and the flavor of Sufism and dhikr [remembering and glorifying God through repetition of Divine names, phrases or Quranic verses], and it brought him to that land, and it was in that land that he made a formal shahada [testimony of faith] and reverted to Islam.

Hossam: Coincidentally, also at Chamonix was, Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee, Rahim Allah [May God have mercy on him].

Hossam: And Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee went to Jerusalem.

Hossam: There reverted to Islam after, meeting, coming into contact with, Sidi Sheikh al-Jamal ar-Rifa‘i ash-Shadhuli, qaddasallahu sirrahu [may God sanctify his secret], who is a common guide, Sufi sheikh, for those of us in the West, in this tariqah of the Shadhuli Tariqah.

Hossam: So, my mother went back to Southern California and raised me as a single parent.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Hossam: She was very spiritual but not religious, so this gave me a safe platform to explore what I felt the truth is, from a very young age. And, I can remember initial imprint in nature.

Hossam: And I believe that to be the ayats, the signs that Allah puts in the natural world that's talked about in the Quran.

Hossam: And so I can remember having what I would describe as a spiritual experience, out in nature, and also with sound. 

Hossam: I loved music from day one, you know, and so we know that sound is very powerful, even just with the vibration and the frequency and the intention and the harmony and all of it. 

Hossam: So I was enthralled with music and nature from a young age. I was sent to live with my father when I was 15, and he was living in a place known as Abiquiú, New Mexico, and this is where Georgia O'Keefe, the famous painter had her ranch and did most of her work.

Hossam: And in Abiquiú, New Mexico, Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee, Rahim Allah [May God have mercy on him], he founded what's known as the Lama Foundation outside the house, and this is still an active spiritual retreat center to this day.

Hossam: He left the Lama Foundation after Jerusalem, and he founded what was known as Dar Al Islam, which was the first intentional Muslim community in North America. And the masjid and the facility is still there to this day.

Hossam: And they, are active with it. People like Sheikh Hamzu Yusuf and different people have workshops there during Ramadan and whatnot.

Hossam: Beautiful setting, beautiful place. The masjid itself was designed by the famous Egyptian architect Hassan Fathy, but it's all adobe, using the, yeah, the natural materials in northern New Mexico.

Hossam: And so when I was 15, I went to live at Dar al-Islam with my father, and his then-wife, and her two children, mashaAllah. And that was my first imprint with the path that I would come to accept later on in my life.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: My father was very always trying to get me to become a Muslim. And I was very independently minded. No one was going to push me into any organized religion. I had to really feel it from the inside out, even though he tried, and in various ways and means he tried, but he had always been doing that my whole life before the age of 15.

Hossam: He would send me Rumi poetry, he would send me music from Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, the famous Pakistani qawwali (devotional Sufi music). He would send me just, lapis prayer beads, tasbeeh (prayer beads) from lapis, Afghan lapis.

Hossam: So he was always trying to, you know, show me the beauty of the path that he was on.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Hossam: But I was very strong in my resistance to anybody pushing me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: So that was… but that was my first imprint, and it was very impactful, and the seeds of that experience would bear fruit later on in my life.

Hossam: Alhamdulillahi Rabbil 'Alameen (All praise and thanks belong to Allah, the Lord of all the worlds). So, I think, when I was 20, I fell 60 feet rock climbing. I broke several bones, and I had a couple compound fractures.

Hossam: And I was really… became aware for the first time in my life of mortality, and the finite nature of the body, and that this lifetime has an end to it, and that kind of put me on a quest in a… in a roundabout way.

Hossam: I started attending 12-step meetings.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Hossam: And became very enamored with the 12-step process.

Hossam: The idea of identifying a higher power that could guide us.

Hossam:. And I like the freedom of the 12 subgroups, meaning no one's giving you a name for the unnamable.

Hossam: But it's important for you to develop a relationship with whatever you believe it to be. And I was very sincere in that, and I spent years in that program. And these are all stepping stones which led me to Islam.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Hossam: So, it wasn't until my early 30s that my mother called me. I was 3, and she said, your grandmother died.

Hossam: And my grandmother had told me she suffered, and she had told me she was ready to go years before she left.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: And then she said, are you sitting down?

Hossam: She said, your father died.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Ohhh.

Hossam: Rahimullah. So… I was totally taken aback.

Hossam: My father, like some other members of my family, like, there was some estrangement, and I always thought that I would have the time to mend those ties. You know?

Hossam: And that's not guaranteed. So, always a reminder to be present and as loving as we have the capacity to be with the people in our lives and let them know who they are for us.

Hossam: So my father passed, and I was totally heartbroken. And, I went to Morocco, which was where he passed, Rahimullah.

Hossam: And, and in Morocco, I had profound experience. I got the call on a Thursday, and by Sunday, I was in Morocco for the burial.

Hossam: And it was during that period, I spent about 7 weeks in Morocco. My father lived 2 hours away from the maqam of Ibn Mashish, qaddasallahu sirrahu [may God sanctify his secret], who is the founder of… he's the sheikh of our sheikh, the founder of this Tariqah, the Shadhuli Tariqah, which I walk.

Hossam: So they took me to Moulay Abd as-Salam ibn Mashish, which is up on a mountain ridge.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Incredible place, just incredible. And there's the Makam [shrine] and the Masjid adjacent to it.

Hossam: And I went there without, you know, having any idea that I would, my father always said I was a Sufi, but I didn't embody that, and I didn't know when I went there that I would take the path more seriously.

Hossam: But my heart was broken with the passing of my father, and so I feel like there was all my resistance, there was a permeability to it.

Hossam: And I became very receptive, and it was subtle things, like hearing the adhan in Morocco.

Hossam: The kindness of my father's neighbors. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: I had been vegetarian for a long time. And they would bring me dishes of food, and what are you going to say? Oh, no, thank you, I don't eat meat. So I say thank you, and my body assimilated in a positive way, and it really changed a lot of things for me. But like I said, I was very stubborn.

Hossam: And I went back home to California. I was playing music. playing in bands and whatnot, and I went back to California thinking, I'm going to do this my way.

Hossam: And it was a couple more years before I actually made shahada [testimony of faith]. An auspicious thing that happened in my father's space in Morocco was that he was kind of an ascetic. He didn't have a lot of physical things, but what he did have was a very nice library, mashallah [God has willed it].

Hossam: And I found some writing from Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee, Rahim Allah [May God have mercy on him], and it… there was a period when I was in Morocco where it rained for days, and I had exhausted everybody's English around me, and I had a lot of time to myself.

Hossam: And I started picking up these books in my dad's library, and there was one book called At Peace in a Time of War, which is a series of essays written in Alexandria, Egypt, by Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee, Rahim Allah [May God have mercy on him], and I read that, and I think in that moment, there was something in the writing that was so....

Hossam: And I think in that moment, I accepted Islam, but it still took me a couple years before I threw in the towel, because I was afraid of Sharia [divine path or law], and I was afraid of what man does to religions, and I also didn't think it was necessary.

Hossam: My father raised me with this phrase, “Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein.”

Hossam: So I would think, well then… He knows me better than I know myself, so why do I need to X, Y, and Z?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right. Yeah.

Hossam: This was a process of breaking down some of that resistance and becoming willing to throw in the towel, which is what Islam means, the peace through surrender, the throwing in the towel. I was… my understanding is that Islam is a verb.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Hossam: Just like, you know, you can see a beautiful watering hole, and you can talk or make a theological thing about what it would be like to immerse yourself in that water, but you're never going to know until you actually jump in.

Hossam: And that's been my experience with Islam, Islam as a verb, not another organized religion, but as a reality.

Hossam: Like that. And then, so, I'll just keep talking. 

Hossam: I, uh, it was nice, because I had the Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee’s book with me, and I had always felt like I should write to him.

Hossam: Because when I was in Morocco, I was saying, I want to believe, but I don't like this thing of hell.

Hossam: Like, how could the Universally Merciful and the Singularly Compassionate create a lake of fire for the sinners? And the people in Morocco, this was when Bush was in office, the one guy said to me, hell is for people like Dick Cheney.

Hossam: And, yeah, yeah, right. Which made sense, you know, like, okay, that's a good answer, but I kept being persistent, because I have this really… And he said, you know what, you need to go talk to your father's friend, that sheikh that writes all the books. You should ask him these questions. 

Hossam: And so I thought…Right, I should, but I knew Shaykh Nooruddeen Durkee from when I was 15, living in Dar al-Slam, and he always scared me, because he seemed so intense, and somber, and, you know, his wife, Hajji Noura Durki, Rahima, oh she's still with us, may Allah bless her, Ameen.

Hossam: She was, like, the opposite.

Hossam: She was so loving and embracing and, you know, Shaykh, so I kind of avoided him, even though we lived next door to each other. So anyway, so I thought, yeah, you're right, I need to write him.

Hossam: You know, and I waited 2 years to write him, and he was living in Virginia at the time, where his Zawiya is still there to this day. It's a study center for refugee kids. MashaAllah.

Hossam: So he was in Virginia, I was in California, I sat down one night, I was in enough suffering to be willing to reach out, and I wrote him an email, and he wrote back, and he said, in a day and a half, I'm going to be in California.

Hossam: And that was, to me, for me, that was a sign, because I kept waiting for years. When I finally was willing to reach out, the answer was, I'll be there in a day and a half, come meet me. And I thought, okay, and I was in Santa Cruz, California, and he was going to Pope Valley.

Hossam: Where the mother center was for the Shadhuli Tariqa, and the students of Sheikh al-Jamal ar-Rifa‘i ash-Shadhuli, qaddasallahu sirrahu [may God sanctify his secret]. So I thought, oh, okay, short drive from Santa Cruz, and I got all the way to Angwin, and my car broke down. 

Hossam: And and the point of that was, okay, you're not… I thought I'd, you know, touch base and then retreat. The point was, okay, you're not going anywhere.

Hossam: And I contacted the people at the mother center, and they came and caught me. And, I made bayat with Shaykh Noorudeen at that time.

Hossam: And honestly, I kind of looked around at some of the characters, and I was suspicious of Sidi [Sheikh al-Jamal ar-Rifa‘i ash-Shadhuli, qaddasallahu sirrahu, may God sanctify his secret]. I didn't know what to expect.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Hossam: And… and thankfully, when I did meet him, I realized, oh, this is… he's the real deal.

Hossam: And and it quieted some of my… unfortunately, I have a very active mind, and I had judged some of the things that I had seen going on in Pope Valley, and when I met Sidi, all of that was stilled. I said, oh, okay, this is it. And so, I also made bayat [promise] with Sidi al-Jamal ar-Rifa‘i, with Sheikh Noorudeen's blessing, Shaykh Noorudeen was sitting right next to Sidi, and Sidi said, Your name Hossam.

Hossam: Shaykh Noorudeen said, this is my student, his name is Hossam.

Hossam: And where I got Hossam from, my birth name is Yohasame Freeborn Cameron, that’s on my birth certificate. My mother made up the name.

Hossam: But when I was in Morocco, I had a very charming hustler. Very charming, but a thief, lie to your face.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: Noor [light] in his eyes, you know, but they know how to work it. He said to me, you should go by Hossam, no one's going to be able to retain Yohasame. So I actually took his thing, and Hossam is therefore my Sufi name. 

Hossam: But I read your invitation to my mother, who I live with, and she said, why… what's this Hossam? Even though she knows the whole story, she's, you know, she wants me to be Yohasame. So anyway, either name works for me, and Hossam ibn Yusuf is a way for me to, feel my father's presence as well, so…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: Alhamdulillahi Rabbil 'Alameen (All praise and thanks belong to Allah, the Lord of all the worlds). 

Hossam: And then I went and I spent 4 years in Charlottesville, Virginia, working closely with Shaykh Noorudeen, Rahimullah.

Hossam: That's it in a nutshell.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, thank you. There's so many, I… I love…hearing people's stories, and there's so many points of resonance that I… I have.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: One, just… I'm obviously very touched by hearing about the, the death of your father through a phone call from your mother.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I experienced the same thing when I was 20 years old.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: A phone call from my mother telling me that my father had been struck by lightning and died.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, -- I did not expect that reaction.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But to the part of your story that… I resonate with is, after my father…died, two years after that, my only sibling, my brother, committed suicide. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then…I don't know how many years after that, but not many, I guess I was probably in my early 30s when my mother died of cancer.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And…And that's what opened the door for me, you know? Like, you've mentioned that you felt heartbroken after the death of your father, and that there was an opening that came while you were there in Morocco.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And for me, I guess I'm a little… my skull's a little thick. I had to get the knock, you know, a few times before the opening came.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But, but yeah, after the death of all the members of my immediate family, I was like, okay, so, yeah, here I am, and and my life's not working.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I knew that. But beyond that, I didn't really know anything. And so I thought, well, you know, why am I here? You know, what's the purpose? What's the meaning of all this? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it was not… I mean, it was maybe a week, two weeks after my mother died that I was introduced to Sufism.

Hossam: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, and I was reluctant. I was skeptical. I studied Sufism. I started reading Sidi's books and studying, seriously, for 2 years before I took hands with Sidi.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I continued to study, including going to the University of Sufism studying seriously for probably 7 years more after that, before I took shahada.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I… there's the aspects of your story that I resonate around. It's like, yeah, I could be stubborn, or I could be skeptical, and I… yeah, it's… there was definitely that aspect in my in my journey, as well.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I especially am interested in hearing… I feel like we could talk for hours, and I could ask you about so many different things, but I'm just going to mention some of them, and then hopefully we'll have time to move through a few of them.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But I would love to hear you talk more about the connection between spirituality and nature. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I would love to hear you talk more about the connection between spirituality and music, spirituality and sound, especially since the reason that I reached out to you was around recitation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And to hear more about, your thoughts on… the…the vibration, the energy that comes with… with recitation, with sound.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, yeah, maybe that's enough to…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Then, perhaps later, we can get to some of these writings that you mentioned, but let's start with maybe the intersection of spirituality and nature.

Hossam: Okay, these are great points to explore, and the letters that I spoke of previously, have to do with the final of that. Because Shaykh Noorudeen Durkee, Rahimullah, first introduced Sufism to me as a sonic theology.

Hossam: And because I'm a musician, I have a degree in music, that was… he was totally speaking my language, and he meant it, and it means…

Hossam: So the…the nature, this is a… this is actually a field… it's not ambiguous, it's called the Quran al-Takwini, T-A-K-W-I-N-I. The Quran al-Takwini is the… is the holy unwritten book of nature.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Hossam: And it has to do with, Allah says, I put my signs on the horizons and within themselves, and in the natural world until they'll know that this is the truth.

Hossam: So I think there's something about the beauty, in our lineage. We say the unnameable name Allah, Allah is beautiful and loves beauty.

Hossam: And, we can all agree, like, the sunset, simple things, like a sunset or a sunrise, or a peaceful meadow with the sun shining through the grass, or even our relationships with the animals in our lives, call them pets, if you like, these are all reflections of that perfection.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Hossam: And it's not separate from the composite of our own being.

Hossam: So, it would make sense that if we're attuned as such, that we would respond to places of beauty like that, like the national park system, I think, is one of the great American legacies, to preserve the natural world so we can restore and refresh and revitalize ourselves.

Hossam: That's my experience with it, and I grew up in Lake Tahoe, so I grew up swimming, summertime and hiking, and then skiing in the wintertime, so I was fortunate to have that imprint, but the first memory I do have was in the desert of Arizona, where my grandmother lived.

Hossam: And I used to write poetry. I still write poetry. I could share some poetry, too.

Hossam: And I remember I went on this… walked up to this mesa, kind of in the desert, when I had a better view, the lyrics were coming to me easier, and I was really young when this happened, and I thought, oh, I made the connection, there's something here, there's something inspiring about a natural environment that's beautiful, or awe-striking, or whatever you want to say about it. 

Hossam: And, the second segue was having to do with, sound, Music, yeah, sound. 

Hossam: It's the sonic vibration, sonic theology, so… We all know, like, that's why, in some traditions, in the Islamic tradition, music is frowned upon.

Hossam: And it's… and I think that's, like, advertising. Like, we were bombarded, particularly in our age right now, we're bombarded with stimulus.

Hossam: And so I think it behooves us to be discerning about what we let in, both sonically and visually, you know, all that stuff. And so, there's a… he was called the proof of Islam, a scholar, Imam al-Ghazzali, Rahimullah, and he talked about music itself, not the issue. The issue is the consciousness of the listener.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Hossam: If, if music has… is intended to be beautiful, or to be healing, or to be a form of praise for Allah, then who can say that this isn't wholesome and conducive.

Hossam: And I resonate with that, and and I liked that, even though in my own… because I'm saturated with music, and always have been, I have gone through long periods of time where I fasted from it, particularly from listening to recordings, as well as from playing it myself. 

Hossam: I've had… given myself those periods our belief is that the Quran is written within your being, so you don't want to introduce so many forms of distraction that you kind of dilute that natural voice. 

Hossam: She likes to say, like, when we're reciting Quran, we're not trying to memorize, we're remembering.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Hossam: So it's a shift in that. So, I try to approach music respectfully and as a form of worship, but sometimes it's just, you know, if I'm feeling melancholy, I listen to some music that reflects that station, but I try to do it consciously.

Hossam: Yeah, you know. It's very powerful, obviously, music.

Hossam: And, when I was in… when I was going to the 12-step meetings, I met… this is a total side thing… they knew I was a musician, and she said… a friend of mine said, oh, we need a guitar player at this little Christian church, you know, in this non-denominational, like, family church.

Hossam: And I thought, okay. Sure, because this is interesting, actually, because so much of my self-identification and ego was tied into who I was as a musician, that I recognized the danger in it, because I had a classical guitar recital, I was going to college, and I did poorly, and I felt like…you know, like, ending it, basically.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Hossam: I was able to say, wow, you're so wrapped up in who you think you are as a musician, that you… You know, so what's all this?

Hossam: So I went through one of those periods, this is before Islam or Sufism, I went through this period of not being so focused on music, and that's when this woman said to me, oh, we need a guitar player, and it's just three-chord songs, like, very easy. And so I did that, so I was the Christian music minister.

Hossam: You know, for a while, and it was very beneficial because people were so moved. People were crying and praising God, and it didn't have anything to do with me, and just about anybody who was a guitar player could have played those songs, and I was like, oh, this is more… this is more like its proper place for me.

Hossam: Yeah, it's just to use it as a form of praise, hopefully, inshallah (God willing).

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm, hmm, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay, so now, let's continue the sound.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, from my own… from my own studies and looking at Quran recitation and just experiencing recitations in our tradition.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, you know, initially, I've said this on the past podcast before, that I approached it as a science experiment. When I first started with the chanting, like, the Al Wird practice, which Al Wird means the watering hole for our listeners who are not familiar with that term. I didn't want to know what the phrases meant.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I just was like, I'm going to say this thing to the best extent of my ability, in an effort to replicate the sound and what happens to me when I do so.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, for me, it was really… at least I told myself with my mind that I was approaching it just as an experiment. I think my heart… my heart knew other things, but my mind wasn't there yet.

Hossam: Yeah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And yet... And yet the experience was, oh, there is something that happens, right? So there's this idea that… that we don't just say a word because of the meaning that we assign to the word, right? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: In our way we're… we're saying a word, because of the light, because of the sound, because of the vibrational energy. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So would you be willing to speak to that point a bit more about the power of sound in terms of recitation in our… in our tradition. And maybe even recite something.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it can be as short or, you know, along as you wish, but just to give us a taste of…a taste of how that sound and vibrational energy can be experienced.

Hossam: Well, it became very clear to me, in dhikr circles with Shaykh Noorudeen Durkee, Rahimullah, at the end of the Wird, we would elongate certain names. And one of the names was Qayyum [The Self-Subsisting].

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: And after this, you know, dhikr with rhythm and getting all that out, then we have this spacious, spending time, deep breaths, soft belly, insha'Allah, open heart, relaxed throat – Qayyum.

Hossam: And in a group setting in the zawiyah, it became clear to my mind, oh, this is the OM in other traditions.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right, right.

Hossam: Vibrationally, very similar.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Hossam: Oh, and so… and I've always liked finding common threads between different traditions.

Hossam: So this is a… it's a Semitic… the Arabi, a Semitic tongue, a mother tongue and the science of Tajweed [correct Quranic recitation] with the Quran is, like, how long you hold certain vowels for, when there's a silence, where the different consonants are coming from.

Hossam: Aayn, you know, for example.

Hossam: So all of this is… is much deeper and faster than I have a comprehension of, but I trust it from direct experience.

Hossam: So the reciting Quran, my Quran teacher says that it releases the latif. The latif are the subtle centers in our own being.

Hossam: So when you're… when you're onto something, these, like the chakra system, similar, these things get activated in our being, and Allah says in the Quran, I did not create the human or the jinn except to worship me.

Hossam: And so that's the purpose of our being here, so it would make sense that that worship would be deeply fulfilling. You know?

Hossam: That's been my experience with the dhikr, and with the Quran recitation, and the Salat, all of it. Like, if that's the purpose for our being here is for that form of worship, whatever form it takes, but for me, like, with the sound and the recitation, it would just make sense if this is a mine that we can continue to draw ore from, as long as we're here.

Hossam: And so that's kind of my approach, based on direct experience.

Hossam: And there's a phrase in the Wazifa where they say, remove me from the quicksands of unicity. And there's a footnote.

Hossam: This passage is talking about theological ideas of unity, rather than in the, drown me in the sea of oneness, or something like this, is a direct taste. 

Hossam: So, what we're asking is, remove me from ideas about the unity and give me a direct taste.

Hossam: So I think it's in the worship, in the vocalization, in the breath all of it, the things that come up for us, like the different… if you're saying, Astaghfirullah al-Adheem (I seek forgiveness from Allah the Almighty), you know, things are evoked. Not only is it sound, but it's also intention.

Hossam: Although, Shaykh Noorudeen Durkee, Rahimullah, has a book called The Recital of the Qur'an as a Spiritual Practice.

Hossam: And he talks about, particularly for us in the West, like you said, first it's sound.

Hossam: It's pure sound. And because of that, first we have to listen to open our faculty of listening before we begin to enunciate.

Hossam: However, the first word of the Quran is iqra. And iqra is often translated as read, but it's not read, it's recite.

Hossam: There's something about giving voice to it that activates certain things. And on a simple level, like I already said, like, you know, if you want to relax and remove some of the tension that sometimes we hold in our abdomen, or maybe you're blocked in your throat, just to relax, and I think that the dhikr is a real medicine for some of these conditions that we have physically.

Hossam: And it's really profound. And my understanding of it is just a scratch on the surface, but it's based on direct experience, which I think is invaluable.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, we're mostly out of time, but I'm aware that some of our listeners do not know what the term dhikr is.

Hossam: Dhikr is remembrance, but it's usually in the Sufi world, it's like chanting.

Hossam: However, we're all familiar with the whirling dervish, and that whirling, that's a specific school of Sufism where they do that, and that whirling is also a form of remembrance.

Hossam: So, it says in the Quran that it's in the remembrance of the divine that hearts find rest. So whatever form that takes, but for us, is the dhikr. It's like chanting.

Hossam: However, there's another Sufi order called the Naqshbandi, a different branch, and they say that the highest form of dhikr is in silence. And I understand that.

Hossam: But, for me, experientially, the vocal dhikr is… is where it's at for me, where I'm at now, you know?

Hossam: And I was only able to be with Sidi for one dhikr session that he led, and it was like…We were, like, the whole cosmos swirling in his presence with the dhikr, so it's a very powerful thing.

Hossam: I do find the, you know, the Zoom call dhikrs, there's a different thing than a group dhikr, of course, but I…

Hossam: I can comment on, like, when you come onto the call and lead the Wird, you have this deep voice that's very comforting.

Hossam: And not only is it comforting, but it's easy to recite with you in harmony, because most of our voices are not so deep and rich.

Hossam: So when I recite along with you, like, I'm in a different place, but it's very conducive to find that place when you have someone with such a rich vocal quality as your own.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, alhamdulillah [praise God], this is a gift, this is a gift from Allah, subhanahu wa-ta ‘ala, [Glory and praise to Him] for which I can claim no credit. Alhamdulillah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well Hossam, thank you so much for being here, thank you for having a great conversation. It was my pleasure, and I could ask you, there are so many topics, so perhaps we can, you know, have another follow-up episode, and…

Hossam: I'd love to, I'd love to, you know, I also play music, so maybe another time we can sing a song.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Alhamdulillah, yes, okay, so thank you so much, and thank you to all the listeners for joining us here on Beyond Names. Before we go briefly, if you would just take one moment to pause, take a breath and reflect anything that sticks with you for… from this conversation with Hossam.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May, excuse me, may something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage. May you find your way again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment on this episode. Please follow and subscribe to Beyond Names. To make an appointment with me, please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, may you be light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.