Tasting Love, Living Surrender: A Conversation with Rahima Schmall

In this heartfelt episode of Beyond Names, Dr. Habib is joined by Rahima Susan Schmall, a psychologist, healer, and Sufi teacher who has spent over four decades weaving together psychology, spirituality, and embodied wisdom. Rahima shares her remarkable spiritual journey—from early awakenings in Al-Anon to the St. Francis Prayer, Buddhist practice, and finally the Sufi path. Together, she and Dr. Habib explore surrender as a doorway to love, the role of hardship in deepening trust, and the healing difference between cure and true wholeness. This rich conversation invites us to reconnect with awe, taste the love at the heart of existence, and remember our inherent value simply as human beings.

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 15

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Rahima Susan Schmall

Title: Tasting Love, Living Surrender: A Conversation with Rahima Schmall

Description: 

In this heartfelt episode of Beyond Names, Dr. Habib is joined by Rahima Susan Schmall, a psychologist, healer, and Sufi teacher who has spent over four decades weaving together psychology, spirituality, and embodied wisdom. Rahima shares her remarkable spiritual journey—from early awakenings in Al-Anon to the St. Francis Prayer, Buddhist practice, and finally the Sufi path. Together, she and Dr. Habib explore surrender as a doorway to love, the role of hardship in deepening trust, and the healing difference between cure and true wholeness. This rich conversation invites us to reconnect with awe, taste the love at the heart of existence, and remember our inherent value simply as human beings.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names, I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Brahman, Great Spirit, Higher Power, or you're still searching for the language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our Source, to the light each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with introduction of our conversation partner for this episode.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Rahima Susan Schmall is a licensed psychologist, registered nurse, PhD in clinical psychology, and healer who, for over 30 years, has successfully blended psychology, spirituality, and medical knowledge into her practice.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: She is a Sufi master teacher, as well as a Buddhist teacher, and a yoga practitioner.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Her healing work uses guided imagery, sacred sound, and meditation to help heal old wounds, dispel negative beliefs, and open to the gifts of the heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: She also works with people who have chronic or life-threatening physical illness who are looking to find meaning in their experience.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To learn more about Rahima and her work, please visit https://sacredsoulpsychology.com/.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Rahima, welcome, thank you for being here.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Thank you for having me!

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, as you were reading that, I realized I wrote that over 10 years ago, so I've been doing this for over 40 years now.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wonderful. 40 years, not 30.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You can see by the color of my hair, yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, you notice there's a lot of white going on.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So wonderful to have you and reconnect with you. It's been…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Same here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ... a couple years since we've been joined in conversation, so it's nice to pick that up again. So, if you would please, if you would help our listeners get to know a little about who you are by telling us some of your spiritual story, as much as you feel comfortable sharing.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Okay, well… without going on forever.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You can take as much time as you'd like.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I feel like I was really in… I was probably a spacey spiritual kid, but I was really introduced to deep spirituality in my 20s. I was involved with somebody who was alcoholic and drug addicted.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And he got into AA, and I found myself in Al-Anon, which is for those who don't know, a 12-step program.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And the third step is “turn your will in your life over the care of God as you understand Him.”

Rahima Schmall PhD: And it's like a light bulb went on for me.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It was like… Oh, that's the meaning of life!

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I started to have these deep unexplained spiritual experiences, like angels talking to me. And I was in a lot of pain at the time, emotional pain, and I think I was just crying from my heart so deeply, that God or the universe answered.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And also, at that time, somebody gave me a copy of the St. Francis Prayer.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I was like, that's my compass point.

Rahima Schmall PhD: This is what my life is to be about.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so I really started searching, and didn't really know what I was searching for. I was just looking for how do you turn your will and your life over to God completely? I mean, that was the search.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then I got involved, with Buddhism, with Tibetan Buddhism and Shambhala practice, which talked about basic goodness. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: And started in school to become a therapist, and fortunately, the background in terms of my psychology background was as a Buddhist psychologist, and it was based on not looking at people's pathology, but looking at people's basic goodness.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And connecting to that, and that your heart can connect to that in them, and that's what's going to bring about growth.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I was going to start… I was starting to do my doctoral dissertation, which was going to be, what is the experience of the surrender to God?

Rahima Schmall PhD: And about 6 months, I think, before I started it, I was just lying around in bed, and I was like… You know, the Buddhist path is great, but it's really not about complete surrender to God.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I said, I will do whatever it takes to be that… be my life purpose.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And as I was writing starting my dissertation, I ended up bedridden with severe illness for about 3 years.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And so even though I was horribly sick, and I'm not going to make… Oh, it was wonderful, because I knew it had to do with my prayer. It wasn't wonderful.

Rahima Schmall PhD: There were moments that were wonderful, because I did get a lot of help from both human beings, as well as the universe.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I somehow knew that the illness was connected to the prayer.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And about 3 years later, I kind of crawled my way over to the Stanford Library.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Finished a dissertation, which was not what I had started out, just a dissertation to graduate.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And, you know, continued on my search.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It brought me to Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And again, things were going pretty well in my life. I was still quite sick.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But I had a great job, owned a home, had a wonderful little dog.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Again, started praying, and saying, you know, yeah, I suppose I could use more money, or a relationship, or this or that, but my heart was saying, I need to find how you give your life over completely to God.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And what happened was, I heard, you're going to meet a man, and then you're going to leave Santa Fe.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I was like, I'm not going to leave Santa Fe. I have a… I have environmental illness, I have a home that works, I have a job.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then I met someone who was a Sufi healer, Wadude Laird.,

Rahima Schmall PhD: And start… and he said to me during our first session, what I want for my life is to be in complete service to God.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I knew I was hooked.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And from there… I came in thoroughly not wanting to like him.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, it was like, oh, here I go with one more arrogant male spiritual healer.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, because when you have illness that's, you know, unusual, like environmental illness and Lyme disease and chronic fatigue, you look around.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So anyway, I went in thoroughly convinced not to like him. He said that, and I was hooked.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then he introduced me to the Sufi path.

Rahima Schmall PhD: He and his family moved out to Pope Valley, which is where the Sufi Retreat Center is. I followed a year later.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Quit my job, sold my house. Gave my dog away, which was the hardest part of the whole thing.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And…I don't share this… this little story a lot. I went through a lot of fear, a lot of, you know, what if this, and what if that, and if this isn't going to work, and that doesn't work, I'm going to California, and it's going to be terrible there, and I left California, and then one day I said, you know, it's simply about, do I say yes and surrender, or don't I?

Rahima Schmall PhD: That's really the only question.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I heard the words, la ilaha illallah muhammadun rasulullah [there is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God] come out of every rock, every tree, every piece of furniture around me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wow. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: I know, and it was like, Okay. This is right.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I had a lot of deep spiritual experiences during that time, you know, just sort of driving down the road and all of a sudden the light was overwhelming. Of course, I thought I was very special and in some advanced station, only to learn later that was probably, you know, the way Allah helped me through my fear of moving.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So I moved and started on the Sufi path, which I'm still involved with today.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Because the practices really feed my heart, meeting a true… Shaykh.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, somebody who's a guide, who's genuine, and who can really open your heart and show you the way was very important to me even though I was a little scared of him.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But… You could feel the love that just was in the environment.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it was like, okay, this is the answer to the prayer, how do you do it?

Rahima Schmall PhD: So… you know, on the Sufi path, you take everything that comes up, and you look at how it covers over your essential essence and your connection to God, and then you surrender that. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: And so I began to learn some really good lessons on how to do that, and practices that allow myself to clear that.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And a lot of it during that time, I was still quite ill, was walking with illness, which is why, you know, is one of the reasons I work now a lot with people with chronic and life-threatening illness.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Because I know what that experience is like and I know what the difference is between knowing that you're loved by God and that the love and the light and the mercy of God are behind everything, versus when you don't.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, there's a saying that if you know God or Allah is there, everything is heaven. And if you don't know it, it's hell.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And so, that's been really, really an important piece in my life -- is really recognizing that with hardship, there’s something happening where the mercy and the love that's in this universe that… that makes the warp and the weft, the weft and the warp, or whatever it is, with the weaving, that makes the world go round, you know, makes the substance of the earth. And when you really know that, truly know that, it just makes the difference in your life, and it becomes easier and easier to surrender all the things that you thought were important because you begin to learn that there's something there that's more important.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So that's just the sort of the short version of the spiritual journey.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, thank you so much for sharing that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I feel like there's so many kernels of wisdom that we could sit with -- on many of the pieces that you said, and just meditate on those for a while. But it's a podcast, so we won't spend our time in silence.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: As much as I might be inclined to. I want to follow up on a couple of things.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: The first is the… I believe you said Step 3 of Al-Anon.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right. Step 3 of the 12-step programs, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, so Step 3 of Alcoholics Anonymous, for the… I'm thinking of it as for the family members…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, Al-Anon is for family members, partners, other family members who've been affected by alcoholism or drug addiction.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. You know, it's funny. When you were saying that, I was like, well, I went to Al-Anon, and I didn't get that out of it. But… but I was… I was a child when I went through…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because my… I think maybe… well, not a child, an early teenager, I think I was 14.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, my… my… I had an older brother who struggled with addiction and alcoholism...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So as a 14-year-old I was going to Al-Anon, but as a 14-year-old, I didn't really have the bandwidth to take in what you shared, so I just wanted to, really try to integrate that Step 3 – “turning your will and your life over to God completely” is my paraphrasing. Is that…?

Rahima Schmall PhD: That's about it, right. Turn your will and your life over the care of God as you understand Him.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And it's like… You know…I just feel blessed that somehow…I ended up there, and somehow… that… opened me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, I do believe it's grace.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That brings up a whole other topic, which is the moments of spiritual awakening. Like, what is it that is the thing that begins that opening that you just described? You know, and that… there's so many different ways that we experience that awakening, that initial opening, and some of them I think we don't recognize, and some of them we think we do, and I think for me, it took…I had to be hit over the head quite a bit harder...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...than going to an Al-Anon meeting did for me before I started that opening and awakening.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then, the other… the St. Francis prayer was, Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know the whole… I mean, I can't quote the whole thing well, you know, where there's hatred, help me sow love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, I thought, it's a very familiar prayer.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's been a while. It's been a while, it's been too long since I heard that.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But that just felt so right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, and I didn't grow up Christian, so I didn't hear the St. Francis Prayer.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But it just really struck me, but that's really what our role in And creation needs to be.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And…, if we would all just have that level of intention to be a vessel.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To be a vessel of love, the world would be a different place.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. So…

Rahima Schmall PhD: I wanted to add just something from what you said about what allows those spiritual awakenings and you know, I honestly don't know.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But… I remember working as a therapist, if I asked people, you know, to talk about not just what did they grow up believing, but what is their experience of a higher power or God?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, we generally don't talk about those things. People keep them very private.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But if you begin to ask, you come up with very interesting stories that people will tell.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I think it's simply that we don't have a container to honor those things, and then reinforce them or allow them to blossom, that they then begin to go underground again.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I think that's especially true with children.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, who are so open, and you know, they might have experience with angels helping them.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I, I was just remembering a story that I read after that big earthquake in Turkey.

Rahima Schmall PhD: There was one little girl who, they dug her out of the rubble.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And, God, I can cry when I talk about this, she said she was fine that this other little girl was with her the whole time, telling her everything was okay.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then as soon as they rescued her, the little girl disappeared.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, and those kinds of things happen in our… Most vulnerable moments.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: If we allow them, and, you know, oftentimes they're poo-pooed, and… we need to nurture those things in ourselves and in others.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And it's not simply just the little… you know… enlightenment moments.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But then, if we nurture them, they can build into just certainty in our hearts.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And we don't necessarily need… you know… fireworks to know the truth.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right, right, right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then fireworks are nice!

Rahima Schmall PhD: Fireworks are nice. They're absolutely…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Fireworks are nice, especially when you're doing something like moving from New Mexico to California on the faith of it.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Exactly.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, my goodness. So what is your experience? That… what you shared, thank you for sharing that story. That reminds me, in my own experience, I was just, of course, listening and processing and thinking, oh, as a child, I don't recall, I sort of…in, you know, I could be completely wrong, but I think that probably my natural disposition was just, like, joyous, beaming light, you know, like, so connected with the divine.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then I think that in an environment that was not safe, that…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...that just got squished down, and squished down, and squished down, and squished down until I was completely afraid to be… in any way, authentic, really.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because it wasn't acceptable, and there wasn't a safe place. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And yet, when I think about how did I experience the divine in that? I remember that there was a horse.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I… I swear…. And I'm going to cry thinking about...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...that… that God put an angelic presence in that horse for me, you know? That horse was a place where I had unconditional love, that… that… with that horse was a place I had safety, where I had...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...connection.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, like…. And that horse was not trained well. For other people, she was difficult, and for me she was an angel. I kid you not, you know, like, let me climb all over her, you know, facilitated. She would, like, open… because I was a little kid, I couldn't, like, reach over and open a gate, or latch a gate, or whatever, and she would, like, open it with her nose, push it open, and then she would push it back, and I mean, like how that horse was for me versus how she was for everyone else was completely night and day, and I…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I firmly believe that God put an angelic presence in that horse for me.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, I absolutely believe that could be true, absolutely.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, thank you for reminding me of that.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, good! That's great to hear!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I'll just read the first stanza of the prayer of St. Francis...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To circle back to that--

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. 

Where there is hatred, let me sow love. 

Where there is injury, pardon.

Where there is doubt, faith.

Where there is despair, hope.

Where there is darkness, light.

Where there is sadness, joy.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Amen.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I don't always live up to it, but it's still there as the compass point.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, we're human, right?

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah, yeah, there we are.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So one of the things I want to also follow up on is, you said…you made an internal commitment, if I heard you correctly-- I will do whatever it takes...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...you made this promise to completely surrender to God.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I can't help but think of all of the people that I know both those on a spiritual path and not on a spiritual path, who are reactive to the word surrender.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Mmm, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And who have such a hard time with the idea of that…turning your will, to go back to Step 3, turning your will and life over completely to the care of God as you understand Him. Like, there's a lot of people that their response to that is, not no but no way!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: No way, Jose.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, exactly. Well, you know, but if we think about it, we're turning… we're surrendering to something all the time.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, it might be alcohol people are surrendering to. They're letting it control their lives.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It might be anger that they're surrendering to.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It might be a particular belief system which they're holding onto as if it's God.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, and that's the thing with the Sufi path, is you get subtler and subtler in looking at the things that we actually do surrender to.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And often, I'll say, you know, people who say, no way, I'll also say, well, what's your picture of what God is?

Rahima Schmall PhD: And usually their picture of what God is, is not Who I'm surrendering to.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, this man in the sky with a long beard, and lightning bolts Who's going to come down on you if you say the wrong word.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, so I think it's unpacking that for people as well as the recognition that we hold beliefs very dearly that we're actually surrendering to.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, if you look at our… Look at the advertising industry.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It makes gods out of cigarettes. Not so much cigarettes anymore, they’ve become no-no's, but, you know…

Rahima Schmall PhD: If you… drive the right car, you'll be special.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, so… We wind up surrendering to those things and believing that that's where we'll find happiness or that's where we'll find fulfillment.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, we're bombarded with that.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So we are surrendering all the time, it's just a matter of what do we choose to surrender to.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, we think we're following our own will, but in a lot of ways, we're not. We're not following our deepest, our deepest, pure nature.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Buddhist terms, or in Buddhist terms, it's, you know, Bodhicitta, or basic goodness, or… You know… Sufi terms are, you know, we're a precious holy jewel, or our essence.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So that's really what we're talking about when we're surrendering, is to that.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And that's because that's what connects us to the love that's in the universe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm deeply touched by this conversation.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, good.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And part of… You know, when…when a person embarks on doing a podcast, or… or any project, a manuscript, whatever it is, you know, I… I think that it invites us to ask, you know, what are we… what's our true intention? You know, like, what are… why are we doing what we're doing, and what is we....

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, and I just can't help but remember the… the person that I was in my teens, and my early 20s, who had turned away from anything to do with God or religion.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And…you know… Did not have good associations with love, or, you know, any….

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And now, you know, however many years later, because of, I would say the generosity of the divine, the divine grace, the divine generosity…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's almost as if faith snuck up on me until I was like, oh, wait a minute, like, I've become a person of faith! When did that happen?

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then along with that was like, oh, I've become a person of faith because the divine has given me a taste of love. It is beyond anything that I had experienced or thought was possible.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so that's one of the… I think one of the reasons this conversation is touching me so is that I think that that's one of the deep intentions that I have, and that I live with, is to invite other people to experience a taste of the love that they did not, that they have not experienced before, and do not know is possible, you know?

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: No, I think what you're trying to do is so, so important, because there are so many people who there's some kind of longing in their heart, and they don't even know what it is.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And it's really for that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's to return to that essence.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah, right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and to… in that returning, that returning in Sufi terms, it requires the tasting. It requires the tasting love and the tasting light.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, to make a connection between the tasting.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I'm going to circle back, I know I keep circling back, but I feel like this is just such a...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Circles are good!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Such a central issue. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I wanted to make the connection between tasting and surrender. So…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Aahh.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Do I…and I'm going to paraphrase here, but this is what I heard you say, something along the lines of -- the question is ultimately -- do I say yes to surrendering completely, or do I not?

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. And yet, it's important, like, I don't think it's possible for our ego selves to do that surrender if we haven't tasted the love.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Absolutely.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And… You know, our person who we both study with, Sidi, says you can't bite… you can't eat the apple in one bite.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So, you taste the love, and then you take a chance.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And you develop a little more trust.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then hardship comes.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And you can either be miserable with it, or surrender.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then you taste a little more love.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then it grows into faith and trust.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I want to hear you say that one more time.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I don't know if I can.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You…. Basically, you were saying it's a process. It's a process of tasting the love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then hardship comes, surrendering, and that building trust and faith.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right? It's a process.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's a little eye kicking the tires a little, you know? It's like, oh, can I trust this or not? And… You know, being willing to take a risk and finding… And working through all the permutations of what happens inside of you when you believe, you know, the false things that go on.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then you taste the love, and then you're willing to go a little further.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And go a little further. And then your heart just grows.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you for that recap, and…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm going to ask if you have some suggestions for…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...helping people taste the love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And suggestions for… Well, I'll tell you, and then we can do them one at a time, but… suggestions for helping people taste the love -- suggestions for people surrendering in the moment of hardship.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Mmm, boy.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, let's start with the tasting the love.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Well, often when I start to work with people, I would say that most people have had some experience.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It might have been you with your horse.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oftentimes, if I'm working with parents, I'll say, You know, when you held your firstborn child was, you know, I'm asking them to find an experience of awe.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Or an experience where they know there's something greater and more beautiful around.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So I'll ask them, you know, what was it like when you held your firstborn child? Oftentimes, it's for people with nature.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, standing at the ocean, and just looking out at the sunset and feeling the waves. So, helping people connect into an experience that they've had, even if it was for a brief moment where they knew there was something more out there.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And that what was out there, which is also actually inside. It's not, like, it's all out there and not inside.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Rahima Schmall PhD: ...could nourish.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I'd say not everyone, but most people have had some experience of that, and so then reconnecting them to their bodily experience of that. Not just an idea.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But their actual experience of that in their heart is a good starting place.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you. And then the next one, suggestions for people surrendering in the… in the moment of hardship, in the experience of hardship.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Boy, that's… that's a tough one.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I know for me, my deepest surrenders have come when I'm totally miserable and there's nowhere else to go.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Though it does become easier the more you do it, I have to say. You don't have to quite go down that low.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Let me just sit with that a second.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Of course.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Some of it… I want to use the word choice, but that doesn't quite… Openness -- a willing to simply be open to the possibility that's there's something more.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So, here I am in the midst of real hardship.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, usually we go through all the things our mind can try and figure out to do.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And we fail, You know, if we succeed, then we get out of the hardship, but if we're failing then the suggestion of, let's see about opening to something deeper.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It goes back to the difference between trying to figure something out with your mind, which is somewhat limited, versus learning how to be with your heart, which opens up to unlimited possibility.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So, I think it's, I don't know if I'm making a whole lot of sense here.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's willingness to engage in something different that, because everything you know isn't working.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But again, the more you do it, you don't have to get to that point of nothing working. You can go, oh, I know I have this. I know there's a reality here. I can shift easier.

Rahima Schmall PhD: But at the beginning, it's a lot harder.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I… I want to make a connection, and then share what I've been doing lately.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But I noticed that when you talked about the suggestion for tasting the love, and I'm going to add, and the light, that you suggested connecting to a bodily experience of a moment of awe, a moment of connection, a moment of...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...awe, an inner nurturing, connection with something more. But you added, “in the heart.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, the bodily experience in the heart.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Well, I think it's both.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, I mean, in the Sufi teachings, everything has to do with the heart, and walking through the heart, and that's where our connection....

Rahima Schmall PhD: But that's not disconnected from our body.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, when we remember something, we have a bodily experience of that memory.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right, our bodies, we have the biochemical… we get…

Rahima Schmall PhD: That's right, the body keeps score.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: The body keeps the score, the body remembers, so we have the biochemical flood that is associated with the previous...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Experience.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...experience, yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: So we want to get to the previous awe experience.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And then from there, you know, people can learn to go deeper into their heart space.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, because let's face it, like, when you're in love, your heart opens. We… I mean, there's a reason we draw little valentines. You know, the heart opens, and so…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, you were talking about the… The opening of the heart, that there is an association between the experience of love and the opening of the… the opening of the heart.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: There's a great quote by Houston Smith, which I'll probably butcher a little bit, and it's like, you know, we carry within us, great wisdom, great love, great peace. It's all inside. The problem is, it's buried pretty deep.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, but it's all there, and so…Then the process is, how do you uncover all the things that cover that over, because it's so inherent to who we are.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, I think that that's… there's a Rumi quote that goes along the same lines, that basically that what you, what you're looking for is within you.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, exactly.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so the spiritual journey is the journey of uncovering what is already within.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right. So a lot of people, when they think of surrendering to God, again, think of, like, this thing outside.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, it's really connecting to the deepest place inside of ourselves that is part of the whole of creation and the universe.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's not some man with a beard on a cloud with a stick.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's being a part, you know, it's connecting to whatever we want to call it, whether we want to call it the Great Mystery, or Great Spirit, or Ultimate Reality, or we want to call it Elohim, or Yahweh, you know.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Which… Thinking of what we call the divine, and how we relate to divine is… reminds me of -- I asked you the question of what were your suggestions for the tasting, the love and the light, but also suggestions for the hardship. And with hardship, you specifically brought up the idea of the willingness to be open to something more than that which is right in front of you in terms of that experience of pain, or that experience of difficulty

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And you tied into that the heart, and that when we can move into the heart, rather than in the…looking only at the experience of difficulty, but we can… when we can move into a heart space, then that opens us to unlimited possibilities.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's my paraphrasing.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I thought that was a great paraphrasing.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I think it's important to realize that when we're talking about the heart, we're not just simply talking about, oh, I'm with my emotions.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, it's deeper than that.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's not simply about, I feel versus I think.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right. Not… Yes. It's not just I feel versus I think, it's… it's like taking the roadway of the feeling to a deeper place within us.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, so I wanted to just throw out there, whether it's useful or not, but in relation to my own experience of hardship lately.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: For me, I have explained on previous episodes of the podcast that there was something very special about going on Hajj.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And very special about the experience of being at the Kaaba, and how that… to – just even saying that ... that's my experience of spiritual home, you know?

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, boy.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And, and so… one of the practices that I've been doing lately in my experience of chronic pain, chronic inflammation, chronic health challenges, you know, often as the day goes on, it gets, you know, my pain level goes up. I start sweating, you know, and it's more difficult for me to just even stand upright, you know, or, so, like, as the day goes on like…you know, there's, like, almost, like, I could watch myself from the noon prayer, to the afternoon prayer, to the evening prayer, to, you know, just…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… And my difficulty with being with my physical state and not being taken out by my experience of physical difficulty, or hardship, or challenge, whatever word you want to use. And so one of the things that I've just been practicing most recently is whatever… whatever I'm doing in that moment, whether it's remembering the unifying name of God, Allah, or whether it's remembering another divine name.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Or if it's actual, you know, the ritual prayer, whatever the… whatever the practice is. But it's, like, I visualize two things, and the first is placing myself in prostration at the Kaaba.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Hmm…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Aahh.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...putting my… inviting my heart to the image of being in my spiritual home.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Mmm…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So part one is to practice with the visualization of being in prostration at the Kaaba. And then the second thing is to do whatever that practice is, to visualize it as if it's moving through my soul.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Mmm.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Wow.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I've experienced been... I mean, more consciously aware of in the last week or so, as I've…is just… that… if I can do those two things, it helps me shift from my only witnessing pain, or only witnessing my skyrocketing body temperature, and sweating, and, you know, all the....

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, and all those things, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, whatever the symptom is, like, it… like, my witness… if I do that, then my witnessing shifts from…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then the other thing, is… I've also mentioned this on a previous episode, so forgive the redundancy listeners, but, you know, I also have chronic falls.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And when I asked one of my respected teachers about that, that experience of falling, and there's a time… sometimes I fall a lot in my dreams, so I'll have the experience of falling in my daily life.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know, but then I'll have the experience of falling in my dreams. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And she said, okay, so tell yourself before you go to sleep that what you're going to do when that happens is that you're going to call out to God as your Beloved.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Hmm…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so, what I've tried to start doing whether it's falling during prayer or whether it's falling in a dream, is to call out 3 times.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Oh, wow.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: As… to call out, for me, as a Sufi, using the divine name, Allah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...to call out to God 3 times, to God as my beloved, capital B.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Wow.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I'm just making the connection about what you shared in terms of your suggestion around hardship and the willingness to open to a different experience, and if we can move from the witnessing of the hardship to a heart space, and the heart space opening unlimited possibilities...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Our life is different.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...the possibility of intimacy with the divine...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...in the experience of hardship.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yes, thank you for sharing that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I think that that's what you were speaking to throughout, you know, when you talked about the move from New Mexico to California, when you… like, yeah, all… throughout your story, it's…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, that's… that's it, yeah, exactly.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And if we really know that what life is about, is greater and greater intimacy with the divine, it sort of puts everything else in a different perspective.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: No, it just does.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's not always easy.

Rahima Schmall PhD: No, it is not always easy, no.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So often, so often, I feel like…

Rahima Schmall PhD: No, it's not.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...a toddler having a temper tantrum, you know, like...

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...you're experiencing all these, symptom X, or symptom Y, or something, you know, like, this is not what I want!

Rahima Schmall PhD: Absolutely! It’s not necessarily what you want.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh…

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, one thing that that brings up for me is…you know, people will say, well, I prayed and God didn't heal me.

Rahima Schmall PhD: God didn't, quote, cure me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: And…You know, the difference between healing and cure.

Rahima Schmall PhD: That healing is really about a deeper relationship with the Beloved, with the divine, with the universe. It's not necessarily about cure.

Rahima Schmall PhD: There are times we get a cure for sure, that definitely can happen, or something will come into our life that will help us cure, but… but let's say it's, you know, I don't know, penicillin. It's still from… the divine.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, and that, that it's partly letting go of, oh, I have to be cured to be okay.

Rahima Schmall PhD: One of the things that just came up for me to share, when I was in bed for that long, and so sick was, you know, I was getting my doctorate, and I thought the way I would help people would be, you know, to be a therapist, and I was a meditation teacher, and that's what I would be doing.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I began to realize that maybe the way I would end up being in service in the world was being someone that some other people took care of.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And that I really had to find the place inside of value just because I'm a human being, not because of what I do or don't do.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And I think that's really important, and I think sometimes, you know, you know, illness often stops us from doing the things that we would love to do.

Rahima Schmall PhD: As we both know. You know, and…so much of the times, especially our society puts value on us based on our actions, or our work, or… and the question is, what do you do?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And… to really recognize that our value is just our inherent essence. And nothing about what we do.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's not always easy to hold on to that, but there's something about, oh, right, That's the truth.

Rahima Schmall PhD: That's… that can be very important.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I've… just in the last week or two, it's been especially on my mind that I… When I was in high school, I ran track and cross country, and when I was in college, I was on the rowing team, you know, so in my 20s, you know, in my teens and in my 20s, I was very fit.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Probably even, on some level, I mean, I started having chronic inflammation and chronic pain issues when I was still in college, so at a very, you know, very early age, so I started having problems. But at the same time, I was still able to maintain a level of fitness for quite a while.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… and I've realized…I don't know why it took me so long to, like, face this part of myself, but there was a lot of my identity caught up in being fit.

Rahima Schmall PhD: I'm sure.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because I used to be able to run, you know, 3 miles, 7 miles at the drop of a hat, and it was no big deal. I used to be able to do push-ups for… sit-ups. I could do sit-ups for hours, like, when I was in college and on the rowing team, my roommates would watch TV, and I would just sit there and just do push-ups. I mean, sit-ups, you know, just like, you know…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And now, my reality is, is that often, I'm not well enough to go for a walk.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that has been really hard.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's very hard, absolutely. There's a lot of grief with that, the losses.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, it's so perfect that you are sharing this, because it's… it's something that I've… I've been grappling with, but just even in the last couple weeks around- - Yeah, my value as a human being, it's not tied to my level of fitness, or my level of attractiveness, or my level of… you know any of all that that we… that our ego selves love to attach in terms of our idea. 

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right. Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I just have to repeat, value just because I'm a human being.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: The idea that service… you mentioned service, the idea of… idea of your role might be as being a person that others care for.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, it offers them the opportunity to give.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, we forget that, that that's actually very valuable.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And what you just said goes back to what we started with about surrender.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, we… when we're young, particularly, and our bodies are fit, we surrender to health, and fitness, and, you know, if you look at all the gyms around, and all the advertising about...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: ...getting good abs, and....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… What we're… when you say value… that we are valuable because… we're inherently valuable.

Rahima Schmall PhD: because Allah put us on the earth!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Rahima Schmall PhD: That's it!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We are inherently valuable because Allah put us here on Earth.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We would not be here, if we did not have unique gifts, and we did not have the divine beauty.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We wouldn't be here otherwise.

Rahima Schmall PhD: That's right! We wouldn't be.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's… it's not always easy to remember that...

Rahima Schmall PhD: True.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...that our… we do have inherent value, that our essence… just because of our essence, because of the divine fragrance, or the divine essence...

Rahima Schmall PhD: that we hold inside of us, absolutely.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, I found this conversation very edifying. It has been good for my heart.

Rahima Schmall PhD: It's been very good for my heart, too. Very good.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Any parting words of wisdom that you'd like to share?

Rahima Schmall PhD: Parting words of wisdom.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: No pressure.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Yeah, right.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, we've all been hurt.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: You know, you started talking about, you know, people having spiritual or religious pain… hurts.

Rahima Schmall PhD: We've all been hurt.

Rahima Schmall PhD: And to not let that stop you… us from really paying attention to the deep longing of the heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Don't stop… don't stop with the outside.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Don't stop at the outside, pay attention to the deep longing of your hearts.

Rahima Schmall PhD: Right, exactly.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you again, Rahima, for…

Rahima Schmall PhD: Thank you.

Rahima Schmall PhD: This is really good for me, so thank you very much.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah. And to all listeners for Beyond Names, thank you for joining us.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Before we go, briefly, just take one breath, take a breath and pause for just a moment to reflect on anything that might stay with you from this conversation with Rahima.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard in this episode help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion and clarity and courage.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in your receptivity to love and to light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And may you be blessed with much love and light, and tasting the love and the light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you find your way home again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me, please https://www.habibboerger.com/.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, May you be light, may you carry light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.