What Does It Mean To Be Human? with Abdul Karim Pinckney

In this deeply moving and thought-provoking episode, Dr. Habib Boerger is joined by artist, former imam, and spiritual thinker Abdul Karim Pinckney to explore one of life’s biggest questions: What does it mean to be human?

Blending personal stories, spiritual insight, neuroscience, and poetic reflection, the conversation travels through themes of compassion, purpose, trauma, identity, and the soul’s longing to return to its True Self. Abdul Karim shares the inspiration behind his new AI-assisted album Manipulations of the Unreal, including the track “People,” which anchors a raw and beautiful dialogue on our shared humanity and divine potential.

Whether you're rooted in a spiritual tradition or simply wrestling with your own meaning-making, this episode invites you to witness yourself and others with greater empathy, honesty, and love.

Key themes:

·         Self-discovery and inner truth

·         Neuroscience and empathy

·         Trauma, healing, and compassionate self-witnessing

·         Music as spiritual reflection

·         Unity without uniformity

·         Sufi insights into the human soul

Transcript

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names — I’m Dr. Habib.

This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition and those who aren’t sure what they believe.
 Whether you call the Divine Allah, Yahweh, Elohim, Brahman, Higher Power — or you’re still searching for language that fits — you are welcome here.
 Together, we’ll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our True Selves, to our Source, to the light we carry within.
 I’m so glad you’re here. Let’s begin.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm super excited and grateful to once again have Abdul Karim Pinckney joining us. Abdul Kareem is also known as The Man of Real. He is a former imam. For those of you who don't know, that's a person who leads prayers in a mosque. And last time we talked about, he had just released an album called Project Inspire. And we were engaging in conversation about Project Inspire and what Abdul Karim is seeking to bring into the world. And instead of going on a world tour and promoting his album for a year, like most pop stars, he's come up with a new album. He has a new album called Manipulations of the Unreal, and when I listened to it, I said, Hey, you know what we need to do. We need to talk about some of these songs and have conversations about the topics of each of these songs. And then, you know, obviously, we could play the song, too. But these are important conversations that we all should engage in. 

So with that, said, Abdul Karim. Thank you for being here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your latest album Manipulations of the Unreal.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Okay, Alhamdulillah, thank you for having me. Manipulations of the Unreal was an album I put together, and the title kind of explains some of the mechanisms or the process that I went through. So Manipulations of the Unreal is really, this was an experimental project where I wrote all of the songs but I had AI (artificial intelligence) actually perform them. So the singers that you hear aren't real people. So that's the Manipulations of the Unreal. And so I also utilize this to get across similar messages that are in Project Inspire, also to provoke some sort of thought and reflection in different genres other than rap, because I know people, not everybody listens to rap. And so in this album there's no rap. There's more. There's even a Western song, kind of like a country song, and pop and R&B is the main genres that this album is. And so it's bringing forth God consciousness and just social awareness.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: There's a song, family, “Can We Be Family,” there’s “People.” The country song is “Sorry,” like, are we too sorry to say, sorry. So it just brings up different topics to think about, and also good music to move to while you're in contemplation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I laughed at that because I'm not.... How do I say this? My wife is a dancer, so she very much is into music and moving, and I am a little bit odd like I'm a little sensitive to sound. 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Oh!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I'm much less. I engage music much less than she does. And I also don't dance and move the way that is as freely as she does. And yet, when I listen to -- you know at the moment the particular song is escaping me -- but I remember that when I listened to your album that I was like, oh, I'm starting to move. There was a -- I was physically -- it elicited movement

That's why I laughed. That's where the laugh came from.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And so that's just it's just another means to continue to bring about conscious awareness and also mercy, because a lot of the songs bring that into the conversation or question. And where's the mercy? Where's the love? Where's forgiveness, these sorts of concepts?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And then what does it mean to be human. That's part of one of the songs, “People.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing that up. So yes, let's have a conversation about what it is to be human. And then I'll trust you to play the song when you feel like it's the right point in the conversation. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: There's so much to say on this topic -- What it is to be human. One of the things that I was thinking about was just my own personal experience, and what I would want to bring to a conversation on this topic, and some of the thoughts that I had honestly were a bit heavy. I was like, so how do you have a conversation about such a serious topic in an uplifting way, how be real but also do it in a way that's inspiring and hopeful. Hopefully saying that sets the intention to do that and opens the door for us to do that in the conversation. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So with that said -- so I honestly -- in my background, I had some pretty rough experiences as a child, and then, as a young adult, it seemed like I was very, I was unconsciously putting myself in situations that replicated childhood trauma, and I'm probably not alone in this. I mean, I would imagine that a lot of young adults go through this period, but ... I remember my therapist at the time was like, Okay, you know, you have now put yourself in the situation of physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, you know, like, “are you done yet?” I mean, obviously, I'm using a little creative license on how that conversation went. But what I'm saying is that I was in the position to think like, what is it, what is the difference between being a victim and a perpetrator, what does it really mean to be a human being, and what does it mean to be a decent human being. I know that can be a little bit of a loaded word, and I know that's a judgment call but one of the things that I was talking about with a friend at the time was just to be human, we need to not only have some level of awareness of our own experience. Brother Jamal Rahman would call that compassionate self-witnessing. So there's some level of self-awareness, hopefully compassionate, self-witnessing. Others don't have that level of self-awareness. But okay, and just awareness not only of the self but of other.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So like to be human is to be aware of self, and to be aware of other and to be human is to be aware that your experience is not the same as my experience. So to have that awareness of what you are perceiving, what you're hearing, what you're seeing, what you're feeling is not going to be the same as mine. So it's recognizing the difference in experience and caring about it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that's just sort of a basic line between, honestly, being a psychopath, being a psychopath and not being a psychopath. Do you have the ability to recognize that other people's experience is different than yours and to care about it? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that's not even like going beyond to like say, Oh, I want to be a compassionate human being, you know, like with Buddhism, it's like all the emphasis on, is on being, I shouldn't say all, but such a tremendous part of the path of Buddhism is around being compassionate.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So first, you have to recognize, to be human, what the other person's experience is and you have to care about it. If you want to be more than that. Just like, if you want to be more than just, not psychopathic, there can also be an action like a compassionate action -- in recognizing what somebody else's experiences and in caring about what someone else's experiences is, does that caring about their experience elicit a compassionate action.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thoughts? Response? 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah, no, that's that's a big way to see, because it's funny ... when you were speaking -- different places that I've lived New York, California, and Pennsylvania have popped up in just the reflection of – one, I mean, I could start off just saying America, because I've you know, visited other countries.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Seeing that our experience is very unique and in the ability to see a variety. And then what you were saying about acknowledging that someone else's experiences is different than yours is a very big part of at least the steps towards developing compassion.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Because there's a, I have a term for people who don't recognize that. And I just say they're habitual line steppers, because they're always stepping over the lines of other people's, whether it's feelings, the way we interpret. Because I believe a big part of our humanity is our ability to give reason or make meaning.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Our ability to make meaning is huge, because that capacity also has a play in our perspective on how we see the world. And so in looking inside, one thing I came across, or looking in as far as, like, scientifically speaking, trying to define, like the human being, and just the simplest term was the essence of the human being is described as a biopsychological organism, a conscious, self-reflective information processing biological system that exists within a social and environmental context.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And this, to me, is something that most of us can attest to as being a part of the truth. And I feel that more holistically when you add, like a theological perspective, because one thing that theology does that science doesn't is goes beyond what's empirical. So it adds in purpose. And so humanity has a purpose other than just this function, because that definition is like describing a pair of scissors on the counter. And so that's nice. You know what the scissors can do. But why is it there? And that plays a huge part of where theological perspective would have that description, and more to bring about, like the human story of how we all come together, our beliefs. And so it's just it's tying in a more holistic picture, where we would connect it to things that go on in the afterlife, that this world isn't the end, and how we function plays out more than just how it appears here. And that's and that's again, from some people who may not have that in their perspective, that's just more humans giving meaning to things that may not have meaning, because you know, that particular individual doesn't espouse that same meaning to life, as far as, like theology, afterlife, God and those things. And so that's if you go to a central element that we all shared experiences that we are meaning makers. And that's something to really be aware of, and not to hold the meanings that we apply so rigid as to dismiss other people's experiences.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Because that helps us, you know, come together in a more unity, but not uniformity, which is something that's key where we all have, we have a similar experience, but it's not sameness, and sometimes sameness, I think, is, is a really antagonistic force to the reality of the vibrant nature of humanity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's a lot. You got a lot in that, right?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: There's a lot to unpack there, so I don't even know if I could respond to, or even remember, all the things that you brought in there. But, like, okay, I want to speak to. If I could make some points hopefully that we can come back to. So you mentioned biology, so a little bit of biology there. You also mentioned the whole meaning thing and the purpose. So I definitely want to come back to that. And there were so many other things. But let me just start with the biology. If I can start there.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So you brought up like, What is it to think about, what is it to be human in this very sort of scientific definition that you had, if I can use that language or terminology.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: One of the things that occurs to me is the fact that neuroscience research has shown that our brains we have mirror neurons. And for anybody who's listening who might not know what mirror neurons are, like those are the neurons that when I see you yawn and I yawn, I'm sure we've all experienced that kind of thing, especially with loved ones ... we are naturally built for empathy. So when we see a facial expression on another person, on some level, we have this micro adjustment so that we try on that facial expression ourselves. So we're we biologically, physiologically, we recreate what we witness as an empathetic, built in system. So I think it's very important to realize. Okay, we are built. You, you talked about building compassion, like recognizing somebody else's experiences, is different from your own, like that opens the door to being compassionate.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If we are not being compassionate, if we're not feeling compassionate, then somehow we've actually gone in the opposite way of how we are physiologically made so. So I think it's important to remember that what it is to be human is, in fact, to be empathetic and to be compassionate to each other.

And there's a connection between mirror neurons being empathy and compassion and I think with the meaning and the meaning making and the purpose, you know like, why are we here? And what do we hope to accomplish like? What? What are we about?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And on that topic, you know you also one of the things you also mentioned was, you use the word same same.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Sameness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ... and unify, something along sameness and....

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Uniformity and unity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. So what that made me think of was that one of my teachers has said that one of the things that is uniquely human is the ability to bring harmony to where there is disharmony, the ability to bring unity to where there is disunity, so to be human, I think, is not only to like embrace our physiological capacity for empathy and compassion, but also to use that to bring harmony, to bring unity, and to live, like to actually act from that place, not just like carry it around as a mental construct, but to embody it, to actualize it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So what else? Let's see, you brought up so much else.... 

I suppose one of the things that somehow got triggered by what you said, or not triggered, brought up by what you said -- is the whole -- when you think about meaning making, humans are meaning making, where do we make meaning the most? And I had -- Seems like my way of engaging in conversations is like revealing all this very personal information. Bismillah (In the Name of God), when I mentioned the challenging childhood, so I had challenging relationships with my family of origin. So my mother, my father, my only sibling and when -- But when each of them died, it was as if their spirits visited me in my dreams for a period of time after each of their deaths.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And what I saw in the dream, or came to, or realized, whatever language you want to put to that, is, regardless of who or what my father was or did while he was in the world, on the earthly world, who he was in his essence was this man who truly loved God. 

And so it was like there was a certain beauty to like, get past all of the failures, you know, all of the experience, because we all make mistakes. We all have our failures, some bigger, some smaller. And then, the same thing with my mother, you know, like when, after she died, I got this sense of who she was in her truth and her essence was like this nurturer like this mothering nurturing growing -- not quite sure how to language it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then, when my brother died, again I had dreams, and it was like this realization of who he was in his essence as being actually not at all how I experienced him as an older brother in the world who was struggling with drug addiction and alcoholism and anger, and and and. In his essence he was this person who was actually very sensitive and very caring and very loving. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so that's brought up for this conversation, or what this conversation brings up in relation to that is like, Okay, what is it to be human? Part of that meaning making is around, who are we in our essence. How do we make meaning for our lives? Part of how we make meaning for our lives is with a search for truth, or a return to our True Self, or, like an Internal Family Systems therapeutic model, would call it like the Higher Self. The search for truth, to return to that. And then, that's what it is to be human. And part is to say, Okay, I'm searching for truth.

I want to, I want to know who I am in my true self. And so there's a reflection of our humanity in the degree to which we engage in that process.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's like we're more human, if we consciously say, Who am I in my essence, you know? Or who am I in my true self, or who am I...? And make a commitment to live from that.

And I'll give an example. And if I'm rambling, I know I'm kind of rambling.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: No no go ahead.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But I'll give an example, and that is, when I met Sidi [Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal ar-Rifai as-Shadhuli] our spiritual, my spiritual guide, and he grabbed a hold of my hand, and he kept saying to me, “Your name is Habib,” and he would point up, and he'd say, “Allah! He says your name is Habib,” you know, and he was just like, this transmission was coming through him to me, that the Divine is conveying to me that I am the beloved. You know that I am beloved of God, one who loves God, who carries the love of God, you know, is loved by God, you know all of that that is associated with the name Habib, and at the time I had no idea what the word Habib in Arabic meant. You know I had no conception of that, and it was a true, it was a true medicine for me to realize my Habib-ness, to realize my beloved-ness, right? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so that for me, when I'm talking about your true self, in the essence, I feel like I'm more of a human being the greater degree to which I live Habib-ness.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You know the greater degree to which I do not let outer circumstances keep me from living out that Habib-ness, that beloved-ness. Like who I am in my truth, in my essence, is someone who loves God deeply.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Did I know that when I was 20 years old? No, I did not. I was like, “I don't know if God exists, and if He does, I'm mad at him.” 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Where I am now, now I'm like, “Oh, yeah.” So when I'm struggling, when I'm falling short, when I'm falling down like, how do I live from Habib-ness, my true self, beloved-ness, and then that's sort of that's what makes me human.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And it's interesting, you saying that, in Arabic the term for human is insan. And it shares the same root as, one is nasiya, which is like to forget. So one of the attributes of a human being is forgetful creatures. And then, on the other side, more reflecting of what you were just saying, it shares the same root as the word unce?, which means intimacy.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: So the human being was a creature created to be intimate with the divine. That's our purpose.

And so, just like you were saying, to find, to live according to that, as much as we possibly can is to tap into our actual humanity, and you can say, you know they use terms like Fitra, also in Sufism and Islam, where that's like the innate nature that leans towards goodness and truth and is open to guidance and direction.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And so that Fitra, we, through our choice, we can either nurture it or corrupt it. And so, and there's times when you corrupt it, then nurture. It's a static understanding, but it's one that's fluid, meaning that it continues to grow and manifest, and it continues to become, I guess, is in some terminology people are using that, becoming something. So our essence as a human being is one of self-discovery that also reflects that of the rest of creation where we see that we're not just an isolated or independent entity, but that our being is actually woven in interconnectedness with creation and other human beings. So our environment, other animals, and in other human beings as well, and every action that we do actually has an impact where none of us are either like, even us on this podcast, on zoom, we require somebody to work the electricity, somebody to work like.... So we're always, like the idea of self as isolated entity is actually something seen as like delusion. But you know we experience it at various points in time. So we have these tastes to come to knowledge so that we can come and then that's again with the meaning making. 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: That's the responsibility because we can misapply meanings to things in reality, too, and that has an effect on our experience as well, and that that's where I think the real responsibility, because, you know, we can become needless and say it doesn't mean anything. So the meaning that we put to it is no meaning at all. And then that has a whole different world perspective to live from. And so that's where our responsibility, I think, really lies in our humanity is in how we apply meanings, because we tell ourselves some great stories and a lot of times we, we're the main character. 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Sometimes we point ourselves as the victim, sometimes the hero. Rarely do people point themselves as the villain, but we do play that role in the various interactions with other people, and to really being open to see how we are engaging and what we are believing about ourselves. Because I think, at least in the Quran that's one of the weightiest statements where Allah says that everyone will return to Him, and He will tell you the truth of that which you used to do. So that day is what obliterates our stories if they're false.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And so we'll get the director's cut of what was actually going on.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I was just thinking the other day that -- who do we lie ... if there is falsehood in our lives -- and who lives a life without some element of falsehood -- who do we lie to the most? And I was like -- ourselves. Yeah, like, I think....

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: That's actually one of the first lines in a song, “Honesty.” We lie to ourselves most. That's the first, like the opening line that's in the Manipulations of the Unreal. Because that's like you said, it's a true statement. And if we're willing to be open and honest about that, that's a huge, because there's, many humans in my experience haven't been willing to be open to see how much we actually lie to ourselves whether it's to cope to survive. And sometimes it's not always a negative thing. Sometimes we have to say certain things to get us through a situation, but if we carry it on beyond the context that's when it can become detrimental.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It can be. I've seen this, too. And oh, it's always an opportunity when I see someone, and I'm like, wow! That person is really unwilling to be honest with themselves, like they are really unwilling to engage in some compassionate self-witnessing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Then I immediately have to say to myself, Okay, so, mister, where are you? You know, talking to myself, you understand.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay, where are you unwilling to engage in some compassionate self-witnessing? What are you not being honest with yourself about? So it does, it takes a little effort sometimes to.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah. And that's the beauty, because we're a microcosm of the macrocosm. So we're like a reflection. So like you said, that's a good thing to do when you see something on the outside. Okay, that's there. It exists in me somewhere, even if it's only in potentiality. I think that you see, in some person exhibiting a state, a way of being that you may not have exhibited before but you have the potential to exhibit, and so witnessing that in that person. And there's a lesson in there for you somehow, and that's all in the process of that compassionate self-awareness that you were speaking about. I think.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. So you also, you brought up, just to make, to go back to something you said earlier. You brought up Fitra. You know our, the Arabic term, I'm going to use innate purity, like that's not how you defined it, but it's equivalent, hopefully. And correct me if....

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah, yeah, okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So you brought up our inner purity, and how part of being human is, you didn't use the word free will, but like we, you use the, we either nurture it or we, so we either we nurture our innate purity, or we detract from it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that reminds me of something that my spiritual guide and teacher said, and that is that there's three types of people, people who are angelic, people who are devilish, and people who are like cattle, and I wonder if you. I'll tell you what I immediately thought -- oh, okay, well, the angelic, that's pretty easy, these are the people that help you return to your true self, take that journey of bringing the light of the soul and the ego-self together through the heart, merging that and traveling to be who you are in truth -- these are the angelic. The devilish -- Okay, that's not so hard.... What are the cattle?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I thought -- The cattle are the people who are easily led, the people who are unwilling to do the, I'm going to use the word brother Jamal -- and I brought him up before just a few minutes ago-- Jamal Rahman. He uses the term, the ‘inconvenient inner work,’ and I love that term because there are so many of us who find the inner work inconvenient, I think all of us, or, if not all, at least most. And there are a lot of people who are just flat out unwilling to do that, to engage in the inconvenient inner work. So it's like, if we get in a situation of conflict like, are we willing to go inside and look at what our part is? Are we willing to go inside and forgive? Are we willing to go inside and do the inner work within ourselves in order to be right and in alignment with our own values and our own beliefs and belief systems, as well as are, we are willing to do the work to be right with other people on the outer. So like there's an inner and an outer engagement to it. And so I think of the catalyst being those people are like, Yeah, no, no, thank you, no, thank you to this inconvenient inner work, and instead are just being led around by the nose, so to speak, you know, like believing what they're told by whatever radio station or news station, or, you know, just like they're not engaged in a deep way. They're just being led around. So anyway, that's something that came up in relation to you're talking about our fitra, and either leading ourselves closer to it, actualizing it and embodying it, or further from it. So I wonder if you have any thoughts on this whole angelic, devilish cattle? This idea that humanity can be divided into these three categories.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Sure. So, looking at the three categories. The angelic would be those that reflect the higher qualities of the divine in alignment. Now the demonic – they would be an antagonistic force to rising or yeah, rising to the occasion to manifest the divine attributes, such as mercy, forgiveness, empathy.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: But there's, these, it's not, it's an underlying mechanism. By how it appears, there's a multitude of ways in which, because there's when people hear demonic or devilish, they often think like evil, like darkness. But sometimes what people fail to acknowledge or realize is what I call the false light.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: So there's this pretend of like, Oh, yes, everything's great, but behind that it's a way where it causes you to miss your potential.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And then, as an animalistic, you can look as you said, where there's not this level of self-awareness where it's just moving by your caprice or your desires. And usually it's lowly qualities, or the qualities that we, as human beings, share with animals. So if just about eating, sleeping, sex, play -- those things where that becomes like the central focus, our animalistic qualities become the driving force behind why. Because eating isn't something negative. Eating can be a form of worship if you have the right intention and meaning behind what you're doing, and it also can be gluttonous and just, harmful from just eating something that's not actually beneficial. 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: It tastes good, but it's actually harming your body and these. But you don't have the self-awareness of how it's harming you, only looking at the taste just as things that are pleasurable, we move according to that, and I like what you said of like people who listen and are easily swayed one way or the other. That's another good way of seeing the animalistic division of humanity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And what about the cattle.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: That's that's it. The animal. That's what I meant was the animal, cattle, cause like you, said they easily.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I got it.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Well, I won't say easily, because we use that term a lot, and me previously being a shepherd is not as easy as shepherding a flock as it sounds in the terminology, but it is in that way where people are easily swayed one way or the other just by someone who has charisma or something of that nature, or maybe not even just they hear something that's put on TV. And just because it's on TV, they move left or move right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I appreciate that you brought up in talking about the angelic that you brought up the divine names. So I think it's, if I may say so, I think it's fair to say that probably we both consider ourselves students and teachers of Sufism.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And in Sufism -- I'm trying to make a connection with what you talked about in terms of what is it to be human, part of being human is making meaning, but connecting the dots of meaning making and the divine attributes. So in our tradition, there's the idea that in pretty eternity we come from one soul.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That there was unity before there was multiplicity. And that there's this divine imbuing, there's this, in this creation of life, in what we, in the multiplicity, in the creation of life, in the individual souls, is the imbuing of divine essence, the imbuing of divine spirit or fragrance, whatever language fits your tradition.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And in Sufism there's this idea that who we are as human beings is mirrors of the divine. So I wondered if you might speak a little bit about that mystical idea of what it is to be human.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: So in that way is where we're, and this is where I use the term cultivating the soul and the attributes, to reflect the attributes of God, in our capacity to as much as we are within our capacity, because it obviously the qualities that we have are from God but they're not exact, and it's, in God's magnanimity where it's equal, it's from God. And so we look to embody. I mean, the first quality of all is mercy, because that's the quality of existence. We say that this life, our existence, that God gave us existence not out of an obligation, but out of love and out of choice. And so to find that mercy and this is one of my previous guides’ message to me was to give myself to mercy all the time, he used to tell me. Sidi used to say, Give yourself to mercy! And I didn't understand what that meant. I can't, I can't even say to this day that I fully comprehend what that means, because I think it's one of those statements that continues to grow as you grow, and showing mercy is not always one way. I mean, there's multitudes of ways of mercy. 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And that's another aspect, too. That's in our humanity that is sometimes hard to accept because you can, there's one of my teachers also said, humanity is one of the greatest veils to God, even though we were created to be the mirror, the signs of God like this, the proof, that in in our choice many times we become veils, and so operating from a place where we are witnessing God, not in eyesight, but within our hearts. And then that obviously would, you'd have to go into. What do you mean when you say the term God? But that's a whole another, that's a whole another.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's a whole another.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah, a whole another podcast for that, but in realm of the human being is that once you find this understanding that you seek to align yourself and reflect these qualities as well, because what I was getting to be that there are strong qualities that are also merciful. 

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Sometimes fighting is necessary. and that's not something that's often seen as mercy. But sometimes it's to prevent a greater harm from occurring, and so the ability to be as open as we can in our means of manifesting mercy also has to do with deepening our humanity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you. With that said, is it a good time to hear a song?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah, I was just going to say that it'd be a good time for me to do this share here of this song called “People.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So this is a song called People from your newest album called Manipulations of the Unreal. And your website, again, is....

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: themanofreal.net.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Great.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And here we go.

Some seem good, some seem bad, some seem happy, some seem mad.

What does it mean? 

What is their story? 

Who is to judge? 

Who is the jury? 

How many just want to be happy?

To those like that, just let them be. 

Some seek the Most High to get by, others seek the Most High to get them by.

So many images to discern. 

Don't hold your interpretations to firm.

Some gain knowledge, others don't learn.

Some escape the fire and others burn.

Such a variety of lives that we live, such an irony. 

People people people.

Some are truthful and others deceitful.

Some are strong and others are feeble.

What do we seek through the mirage? 

People are people, and God is God.

People will help, and people will hinder. 

People can heal, and people can injure. 

Who is real and who's a pretender? 

Watch your heart, and who you let enter. 

We only can see what we can see. 

There are so many possibilities. 

We make choices, and what will be will be.

Reliance on people brings uncertainty. 

People lie to themselves. 

We all have proof.

Actions are loud, but intentions are mute. 

We have our ways that we all move.

When speaking about people, remember, we are people too.

People people people. 

Some are truthful and others deceitful. 

Some are strong, and others are people.

What do we seek through the mirage? 

People are people, and God is God.

Don't alienate all people. 

We need each other to survive. 

These are the ways of this world, the ways of this life. 

Are you strong enough to sift through the rubble to find the treasured ones, that makes worth the struggle. 

Have you been wounded so bad you just push people away, avoiding conflicts like in the means to communicate, in ways that connect, not just control, to have things, the way you want them to go?

Are we result oriented, only outcomes matter.

We might get to our goals, but in the wake of disaster 

People people people.

Some are truthful and others deceitful. 

Some are strong, and others are people.

What do we seek through the mirage? 

People are people, and God is God. 

People are holy, people are wealth. 

A way to help see through our self and not just see through our self. 

Some are truthful and others deceitful.

Some are strong and others are feeble.

What do we seek through the mirage?

People are people, and God is God.

And God is God.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: All right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thanks again. That's themanofreal.net, right?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah, themanofreal.net.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that song. Thanks for having a conversation. I'm sure we're way over our, you know, I'd like to stick in the 20 to 40 minute time frame, and I'm sure we're way over. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But I was just going to -- I really appreciate the fact that the song acknowledges that people are holy. That was one of the lines, people are holy. And yet sometimes people are deceitful, like part of the -- What is it to be human? Part of being human is we have this angelic part, and then part of being human is that we have this lower-self part, and acknowledging that, and acknowledging that people are people, and God is God. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So do you want to say anything about that line -- People are people, and God is God?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: People and people, and God is God, and so people will be what they will be, and God will always be what He is. And so when we have a real grounded, deep understanding of God, we can say, people are people and God is God, meaning that we don't allow for humanity to become a veil of God, because we are acknowledging God through our witnessing of everything--  that you said, like people are holy people, people are truthful, people are deceitful. And then in all of this, to not lose our awareness of God's reality, because there's something being transmitted to us when we're able to sit in that place. And we can learn, because, like the last, one of the last things that says, a way to help is to see through our self and not just see through ourself.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: And so it's like to see through the self, meaning to pierce through it, and not to just see through ourselves. So on, not seeing only through our narrow perspectives, but to witness that our perspectives are limited and be open to seeing beyond that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that fits perfectly with the line -- What do we seek through the mirage.

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, which brings us back to part of being a human is making meaning. And how we make meaning is to search about the truth, to return to the truth, to return to our True Selves. 

So yeah, thanks for engaging in the conversation. 

Any last-minute thoughts?

Abdul-Karim Pinckney: Take the journey, the journey of self-discovery. It's amazing. It's scary, but it's worth it. At the end of it all, through all of the pains, the joys, the angers, the upsets, it's worth it. And it's what we're here for.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess our inspiration from this conversation. What it is to be human is part of what it is to be human is to take the journey, to return to your true selves, and in whatever like I want to hold over the door, for, I mentioned earlier, Habib-ness, like I wasn't like in this place. Where I am today, I feel like I'm very in touch with the part of me that loves God and knows that I am a beloved of God, and knows that all of us are a beloved of God. But I also know that there was a part of my journey where I, like I mentioned earlier. I didn't know if God existed. So I just want to encourage everybody, regardless of your tradition or no tradition, where you are in relation to your conception of God and the divine -- hold the door open -- like I feel like the way that my spiritual guide held the door open was to say, travel through your ego-self, your lower self, through your heart, through your soul, to return to your True Self, and be who you're truly meant to be.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, yeah. And through that, taste ... taste love in a way that you never knew was possible, and taste being, you know, mercy and being compassion, and so on, in a way that you didn't know was possible. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So now I think on that note, it's a good spot to, it's a good place to end. So again, thank you for having a conversation about what it is to be human. Thank you for sharing your creativity. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you, all of you, for joining us on Beyond Names.

Before we go, briefly, just one breath, take a breath and reflect for just a moment on anything that stayed with you from the song, this conversation.
 Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.
 May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage.
 May you find your way — again and again — back home to yourself, back home to the Divine, however you name it.
 If today’s conversation spoke to you, I’d love for you to share it, leave a review, or reach out.
 Until next time, peace be with you. 

May you be light, may you carry light, and may you share your light.